Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Rocket your D&D 5E and Level Up: Advanced 5E games into space! Alpha Star Magazine Is Launching... Right Now!

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="rounser" data-source="post: 1366677" data-attributes="member: 1106">Instead of resorting to an analogy that might or might not map onto the topic at hand, it would perhaps be more relevant to talk about the issues as they actually stand.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Here's my attempt...the scenario this thread seems to suggest:Most DMs probably wouldn't put a great wyrm black dragon in a dungeon designed for 1st level characters (though they might put in a benign crazy lich, or a workaroundable golem, or something easily evadable like juju zombies, none of which really count), yet they would in a wilderness; but (and I think it's a big but)......as other posters have suggested, most DMs probably would fudge the encounter so that the PCs were guaranteed the opportunity to escape said great wyrm if they wanted to.  Few DMs would obey the "who spots who" rules in the front of the DMG and have the great wyrm surprise and turn the whole party into pools of acidic goo within a round.  TPK, nothin' but net. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I would argue that this is pure tradition - let me explain.  Wildernesses are firstly not really designed for any particular level party, and are often not so much adventuring environments that PCs are supposed to seek out unto themselves as randomly populated hazards that they have to get past before getting to the real adventuring environment (such as a dungeon or city).  And, the DM figures, if they run into something out of their league I'll fudge it so they get away (or it doesn't notice them, or something) unless they do "something stupid".The question I think this raises is, if wildernesses are so CR blind, what's so special about dungeons and adventures that they shouldn't also be CR blind?  The answer, I think, is pure tradition and discrimination against the wilderness as a legitimate adventuring environment unto itself.  As was touched on in another recent thread, there are few or no D&D equivalents in approach to treatment of the wilderness as the Fighting Fantasy books such as Shamutanti Hills and Forest of Doom do, where it is is the adventure, not just an obstacle on the way.  I think there are good alternatives to the traditional way of handling wilderness - here's one:As a prerequisite for being considered a non-TPK-prone self-contained adventuring environment, I'd suggest that there are some good reasons why wildernesses might be successfully "zoned" by CR.  For starters, there's some good verisimilitude logic behind why high CR monsters probably wouldn't hang out near civilised areas.  The most compelling reason is that if that's the case, then they probably wouldn't be civilised areas for long. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  If verisimilitude's your thing, I think it's hard to justify hamlets in the range of a troll tribe without some compelling reasoning.  Also, unless mid-to-high level adventurers are ultra-rare (which they're generally not under the standard rules) then the dragons, liches and assorted other rabble have probably been driven away by these folk at some stage.  For those of us worried about "why the high level NPCs don't deal with the kobolds", there's a reason right there.  They're off on a crusade to stop a flight of wyverns from the north.When the PCs reach mid-to-high level, they'll probably have to deal with incursions into civilised areas of say, an army of trolls.  Perhaps, as the PCs gain levels, they stray towards the frontier areas of the kingdom they're in, and deal with more deadly wilderness beasties.  By high level, they may settle a true wilderness, and face the real nasties.  Just another reason why adventurers may be needed to carve civilisation out of the wilds.  Of course, these are just ideas, and probably have holes, but my point is that there are alternatives to The Way Things Are Done when it comes to the wilderness, as handed down in the DMGs.Eh?  D&D is a game.  Some people may play it more as an opportunity to show off worldbuilding, or as some attempt at an interactive novel, and I think their games tend to suffer a bit for that.  What I would consider an over-emphasis on verisimilitude is a symptom of that kind of approach to D&D, I think.</blockquote>

Verification