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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3810362" data-attributes="member: 4937">I can do that already in every case.The 'running away from danger case' is particularly the case I had in mind where you could force a group challenge.  But there are only so many collapsing castles or the like you can do in a campaign before it becomes silly.  In any event, as I said, I can already do this, it just involves using a lower DC than you'd use if you were running SAGA.  Under either rule set, if you set the DC such that the guy with the best balance is even challenged, then if you force a group skill check it is almost certain that someone will fail.The 'stealth' case you site is almost always going to be resolved in an entirely different way SAGA rules or not, depending on the particular mission.  Assuming I had no spell resources to shortcut the problem, at least  one of the following courses of action are likely to be smarter than trying to sneak with a party that isn't focused on sneaking:a) Send the stealthy guy in solo to retrieve the gizmo/coup de gras the BBEG.b) Disguise (or hide) the party as something believable and then use the party spokesperson to bluff his way in.  This turns a group challenge into an individual challenge.  Use a wagon if necessary.c) Bribe the guards, or offer to negotiate, or forge a pass, or otherwise do what it takes to make it one focused character's skill check vs. some low level guys opposed check.d) Forget about the skills. Plan a careful assault and attempt to overwhelm the camp.The 'spot' situation is exactly what we have now.  The only difference is that the Bandits have to be significantly stealthier in order to have a meaningful ambush.  And its not in and of itself a group skill challenge (you don't give out XP for avoiding surprise in addition to winning the combat).The 'everyone has to talk to the noble' situation is another one I'd already thought of.  Again, only so often you can do this before it starts feeling contrived.And if it isn't autosuccess, the intelligent course of action would still be to make yourself unobtrusive, pretend to be a servant with no opinion of your own, and let the diplomat do all the talking of import.  Very few characters are going to deliberately play the action movie bumbling side kick that gets everyone in trouble by sticking thier nose in where it doesn't belong, and few parties are going to forgive the player for 'ruining everything' if it is a habit.  The only reason that you'd want to throw multiple persuaders at the problem is if you had to talk to multiple people and you were under such a hard time limit that one person couldn't talk to both.  This is the 'meet me in the west wing at 5 o'clock' and 'meet me in the east wing at 5:00 o'clock' situation.  But again, do that sort of thing too often and it's contrived. The main thing to note is that the DC of all the secondary challenges is still arbitrary.  If it's set to a reasonable DC for a 1st level character and it doesn't have lethal consequences for failure, then its still an interesting challenges to everyone but the main diplomat talking to the grand high poobob.</blockquote>

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