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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3811104" data-attributes="member: 4937">What I'm saying is that if the rogue has a +20 to balance, you aren't going to set the DC even as high as DC 20 even in a SAGA-like system because you are going to have party members with around +10 to Balance, and with 4 other party members each with a 25%-50% chance of falling you are just about garuanteeing that one falls.  Instead, even in a saga like system, you are going to set the DC based on the average balance check of the group, not based on the balance check of the best member.  Otherwise, your skill test is IMO unfairly hard.  You certainly aren't going to set the DC at 25 to challenge the rogue, because then the rest of the party is still doomed.  So, since the DC of a group challenge depends on what is an average skill and not the best skill, does it really matter except in terms of flavor whether the balance check is DC 10 or DC 15 or DC 5?   Either way, the rogue easily passes what is a difficult test for everyone else.I don't think that is relevant.  The only way to make a group challenge challenge the strongest individual is if the average skill of the group is very close to the strongest member.  A difference of 15 (+75% chance of failure) isn't close enough to solve the problem.  Besides, focused 20th level rogue with 22 dex vs. armored 20th level Paladin with 10 Dex is a difference of more like 20, which might as well be a difference of 30 or 35.  I just don't see this as being necessarily a big net gain in gamability.I don't think you understand my point.  From the DM's perspective, you are trying in a group challenge to get everyone involved and from that perspective a group challenge is 'better'.  But from the PC's perspective, if there is a significant risk, then it is always 'better' to turn a group challenge into an individual challenge if they can because this mitigates the risk.  Before you gain a large amount of PC involvement, you have to have some system that rewards group contribution.  At present, I'm not sure what such a system would be like, nor am I sure that you can have such a system and not railroad the players.True, but the scout's spot check keeps your scout from being surprised in an ambush, but it doesn't (necessarily) keep your wizard from being surprised.  So, even if the scout has no chance of being surprised, the wizard still has a stake in the challenge.  If the parties average spot DC increases systematically, the DM will simply be encouraged to increase the DC of the challenge accordingly, but you really aren't going to ever challenge the specialist with this sort of thing if the gap is even as big as 15.  Because if there is significant risk of the specialist failing, then almost certainly everyone else will as well.Suppose that the difference is 35, and your bonus is +2.  You are still interested in the DC 13 spot check to avoid surprise, even if the rogue has absolutely no chance of failing it.  And the rogue still has no chance of failing it it the difference is 15.   Ahh, but you say what if the DC is 23, wouldn't it then be more interesting if my bonus was +12.  To which I respond, you as a DM choose the DC.  The DC in the example is 23 because the bonus is +12; the bonus isn't +12 because the DC is 23.  So, I don't see the improvement unless you prefer the fluff - what action that higher DC is supposed to represent.Not so much.  I figure adventurers do alot more killing and drinking than log rolling.</blockquote>

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