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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3811166" data-attributes="member: 4937">We haven't talked about it much, but it is for that reason that SAGA handles multiclassed characters in such an ugly way.Also, there are alot of skills that really really reward dabbling.&nbsp; We've talked alot about balance, and that is an extreme case in point.&nbsp; Most ordinary balance challenges you run into aren't along the lines of 'walk across the tight rope', but rather 'run down the steep uneven slope', 'chase the villain across the frozen lake', 'charge through the bracken', or 'fight in the slippery muddy cavern'.&nbsp; Essentially, any mundane risk of falling where you can't take 10 on the check because you are rushed and/or in danger.&nbsp; These sorts of mundane balance challenges don't require large investments in balance to have big payoffs in a character's success rate.&nbsp; My rogue might not necessarily invest many points in balance so that he can run along tight ropes, but he almost certainly will dabble enough to handle ordinary terrain challenges (freeing up points to dabble somewhere else).&nbsp; And getting 5 ranks in balance to avoid flat footed penalties is just huge for any class.Anything with basically static DC's and no opposed checks heavily rewards dabbling (craft, handle animal, heal, knowledge, ride, swim, survival, use rope, several other skills depending on how your DM handles them).&nbsp; Synergies are another thing that heavily rewards dabbling.&nbsp; Multiclasing tends to encourage this sort of thing, with people taking small dips from skills.Now, everyone dabbles 'for free'.&nbsp; To resolve that problem we have to make large distinctions between the trained and untrained uses of the skill, placing a mental burden on play during the session rather than simply during the leveling up process.&nbsp; I just don't see how the advantages here outweigh the problems.&nbsp; Fortunately, it sounds like the design team recognizes that the SAGA system has some problems and are going to tweak it, so maybe they'll come up with something I'll be happier with than a straight port.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 3811166, member: 4937"] We haven't talked about it much, but it is for that reason that SAGA handles multiclassed characters in such an ugly way. Also, there are alot of skills that really really reward dabbling. We've talked alot about balance, and that is an extreme case in point. Most ordinary balance challenges you run into aren't along the lines of 'walk across the tight rope', but rather 'run down the steep uneven slope', 'chase the villain across the frozen lake', 'charge through the bracken', or 'fight in the slippery muddy cavern'. Essentially, any mundane risk of falling where you can't take 10 on the check because you are rushed and/or in danger. These sorts of mundane balance challenges don't require large investments in balance to have big payoffs in a character's success rate. My rogue might not necessarily invest many points in balance so that he can run along tight ropes, but he almost certainly will dabble enough to handle ordinary terrain challenges (freeing up points to dabble somewhere else). And getting 5 ranks in balance to avoid flat footed penalties is just huge for any class. Anything with basically static DC's and no opposed checks heavily rewards dabbling (craft, handle animal, heal, knowledge, ride, swim, survival, use rope, several other skills depending on how your DM handles them). Synergies are another thing that heavily rewards dabbling. Multiclasing tends to encourage this sort of thing, with people taking small dips from skills. Now, everyone dabbles 'for free'. To resolve that problem we have to make large distinctions between the trained and untrained uses of the skill, placing a mental burden on play during the session rather than simply during the leveling up process. I just don't see how the advantages here outweigh the problems. Fortunately, it sounds like the design team recognizes that the SAGA system has some problems and are going to tweak it, so maybe they'll come up with something I'll be happier with than a straight port. [/QUOTE]

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