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<blockquote data-quote="Remathilis" data-source="post: 3814828" data-attributes="member: 7635">And thus, we have a situation where were D&amp;D becomes two games: Combat and &quot;notcombat&quot;. Since 3.X, there has been a shift (and it was vocally criticized as well) that &quot;every class should be able to do something in combat&quot;. Its the reason many 3.X classes got combat-based abilities added to their classes (rage, smite evil, bardic buff songs) so that a character always had something &quot;cool&quot; to do in combat. Fourth Edition is continuing that legacy and expanding it. However, &quot;notcombat&quot; still lags in the days of NWP. While the rogue was given sneak attack to take his otherwise combat-pathetic backstab and make it worthwhile, nothing was given in return to the fighter in &quot;notcombat&quot; abilities other than 2 skill points and the worst selection of class skills. So the rogue is now useful in combat and out of it, but the fighter remains only useful in combat. So you end up with situations where the best (and by default) only option becomes combat. No one has ranks in diplomacy? Roll initiative. Fighter's sneak scores too low? Initiative. SAGA, by giving characters a slow, steadily raising skill &quot;rank&quot; (raising like bab, saves, or hp) allows them to try other methods first (try to sneak past the guards, try to bluff the ogre) rather than look at their minuscule non-rank skill modifiers and saying &quot;screw it, roll for initiative&quot;In short, it brings &quot;notcombat&quot; up to the realm of &quot;combat&quot; and makes it a viable (and even attractive) option.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Remathilis, post: 3814828, member: 7635"] And thus, we have a situation where were D&D becomes two games: Combat and "notcombat". Since 3.X, there has been a shift (and it was vocally criticized as well) that "every class should be able to do something in combat". Its the reason many 3.X classes got combat-based abilities added to their classes (rage, smite evil, bardic buff songs) so that a character always had something "cool" to do in combat. Fourth Edition is continuing that legacy and expanding it. However, "notcombat" still lags in the days of NWP. While the rogue was given sneak attack to take his otherwise combat-pathetic backstab and make it worthwhile, nothing was given in return to the fighter in "notcombat" abilities other than 2 skill points and the worst selection of class skills. So the rogue is now useful in combat and out of it, but the fighter remains only useful in combat. So you end up with situations where the best (and by default) only option becomes combat. No one has ranks in diplomacy? Roll initiative. Fighter's sneak scores too low? Initiative. SAGA, by giving characters a slow, steadily raising skill "rank" (raising like bab, saves, or hp) allows them to try other methods first (try to sneak past the guards, try to bluff the ogre) rather than look at their minuscule non-rank skill modifiers and saying "screw it, roll for initiative" In short, it brings "notcombat" up to the realm of "combat" and makes it a viable (and even attractive) option. [/QUOTE]

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