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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3815462" data-attributes="member: 4937">Yes, as DM of both systems, I'm aware of that.  But my particular complaint was that universal competancy was a rather rare thing in extant rule sets.  I don't recall encountering it in RIFTS, GURPS, Chaosium CoC, WEG Star Wars, Chill 2nd edition, WoD, BESM, or well - anywhere.  Now, on the other hand skill systems are pretty darn common.  D&D's lack of a skill system was - though preferred by a small audience - frequently cited as a source of frustration for the longest time before 3rd edition came along.  Certainly it was part of what sent me to GURPS.  I wasn't asking how people managed without a skill system.  I know how people manage without a skill system.  I was asking how players managed without universal competancy.  Granted, that is also a rhetorical question, but it seems like the impression of everyone else here is that things never worked without it.It's not enough to cite past improvements in the game to justify any particular change.  Those past improvements or changes justify or don't justify only themselves.  You have to justify this change on its own merits.And I'm telling you right now, it isn't going to 'work'.  By that I mean, it isn't going to accomplish what seems to be the key issue here - allowing a player to do anything he wants with a character with a reasonable chance of success.  A year from now I can tell you what the reoccuring threads will look like.  Just as people whined and whined about how they had to have per encounter abilities so that there Wizard wouldn't have to resort to using a crossbow, just like they complained about how low level characters weren't fun because they didn't have enough options, a year from now you are going to have threads were people complain that the system works 'ok' at high levels, but low levels no one 'has any options'.  Everyone's nontrained skills are still too low to be useful, and so they have to resort to combat.  And, they'll be complaining about how the 25% or 50% or larger gap in the chance of success is still too large.Yeah, by definition its better if its better.  But, I don't see it as better.  Mostly, its just going to be different and create different problems and be the source of alot of complaining.   It's yet another power creep thats going to end up scaling up numbers, which scale up challenges, which scale up numbers, like we've seen ever since early in 3.X.  This time next year they'll be whining about how multiclassing skills doesn't work, how they can't dabble, how there isn't enough diversity or flexibility, and this and that, and they'll still be reoccuring threads on how hide/spot doesn't work and so forth.</blockquote>

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