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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Remathilis" data-source="post: 3817192" data-attributes="member: 7635">Ok, dispense with hypothetical and look at the math. What can a PC actually DO with these numbers.Lets take Saga's numbers as written. The skill formula is 1/2 char level + attribute. Trained adds +5, Focusing another +5.So with that...Level Unt/Trn/Foc (+attribute)01st: +00/+05/+1005th: +02/+07/+1210th: +05/+10/+1515th: +07/+12/+1720th: +10/+15/+2025th: +12/+17/+2230th: +15/+20/+25So what does this mean? first off, a 10th level PC has the same chance as a FIRST LEVEL trained PC to complete a task untrained. So Bob the untrained climber is as good a climber as Suzie the Acrobat was 10 levels AGO. At Level 20, he's as good as the focused character was at FIRST LEVEL. At any equal level, there is a five or ten point gap at most (ability scores equal). So What can a character (hypothetically) untrained in all skills do at, lets say 10th level. (right around the time he's as competent as a first level trained and 1/2 as competent as a first level focused)? (For sake of argument, he's got all 10s in his ability scores). REMEMBER: He cannot take 10 on any of these, since he's untrained in all of them. He can take 20, at the normal time cost (x10 time unit)Acrobatics: He needs to roll a 5 or better to cross a surface 8-15 CM wide. (DC 10). He can also wiggle out of bonds (1d20+5 vs. opponents dex check+10). He CANNOT cross difficult terrain with speed, fall prone, reduce falling damage, stand up from prone (without AoO), or Tumble. (all Trained).Climb: He can climb a knotted rope/wall brace, (DC 0), either/or (DC 5) without fail, but must roll a 5 to climb very rough wall (DC 10), or a 10 to climb a surface with adequate hand/footholds (DC 15). He can make hand/foot holds on a roll of 10. Deception: The character can make a deception check (1d20+5) vs an opponents perception roll (for lying, disguises, etc) with a modifier based on outlandishness. He can feint (1d20+5) vs an opponents initiative check.Endurance: The character has to roll a 5 (+2 per hour) to make a forced march. He must roll a 5 (+2 per round) to hold his breath past his con score in rounds. He can ignore hunger an thirst with the same roll (5, +2 per day(hunger) or hour (thirst). He can run at x4 speed on a roll of 5. He can sleep in light armor on a 5, medium for 10, heavy for 15). Lastly, he can swim on a roll of 10 or greater (tread water on a 5). Gather Info: He can learn major news on a roll of 5, but verify info on a roll of 15. He can learn secret info only on a 20, (if even). He can locate someone on a roll of 10 (easy) to 20 (hard). Initiative: His initiative modifier for action is 1d20+5. He has the same chance to avoid a feint.Jump: His roll +5 equals 1/3 his jump distance (so rolling a 9 total is 3 meters). He can make a high jump at DC = height x 12 in meters. He can jump down from a height of 3 meters with a roll of 10. Knowledge (Any): he can make common knowledge checks on a roll of 5 or more, but not expert knowledge at all (trained). Mechanics: Cannot Use. All elements are trained.Perception: He can eavesdrop on a conversation on a roll of 5, but factors such as locale can raise that DC. He can hear ambient noise on a roll of 5. He can notice targets (not hiding) down to medium sized without a roll, but small or smaller is requires a roll of 5 or greater. He has a 1d20+5 chance to beat a stealth check for actively hiding targets. He can search for clues and hidden stuff on a roll of 10 or better (depending on the nature of the search). He can also use his 1d20+5 chance to find hidden objects on a person or sense deceptions. He can try to sense influenced characters (by supernatural powers) with a roll of 15.Persuasion: He has a chance to persuade targets (will save + attitude modifier) to change their attitude. They can haggle with an indifferent merchant over the price of goods with a rll of 20, but 15 for friendly or 10 for helpful. He can intimidate someone vs. their will defense score. (10+level+modifiers)Pilot: An untrained pilot avoids collisions on a roll of 10. He can make opposed rolls in a dogfight, or ram someone. He cannot engage an enemy or increase vehicle speed beyond limits (both trained).Ride: A rider can guide with knees, or stay in the saddle with a roll of 5. He can use the mount as cover, soft fall from it, or leap with it on a roll of 10, and can control a mount in battle, or fast mount/dismount on a roll of 15. Stealth: The character can hide items or his person, or perform a sleight of ahnd as a opposed perception check. He can try to pick a pocket, but he has 1d20+5 vs. the opponents perception +5 (effectively canceling out his level bonus). He can snipe, but his chance vs. the perception is 1d20-5. Survival: He can make basic survival checks (for food & shelter for 24 hours) with a roll of 10 or better. He can endure extreme temps with a field kit and a roll of 15. He can sense cardinal direction with a roll of 5. He cannot track (trained). Swim: Actually moving in water vs staying afloat (endurance). He can swim in calm water (roll of 5), rough water (roll of 10) and stormy water (roll of 15). Treat Injury: He can administer first aid on an unconscious or wounded creature on a roll of 10 (and heal 1 hp for every point over). He can provide long term for only one creature (vs 6 if trained). He can heal damage on a roll of 15 (and don't fail). He cannot perform surgery, install a prosthetic, revive a fallen foe, treat disease, treat poison, or treat radiation.Use Computer: He can establish a remote connection to a computer with a 5. The info gathered ranges from general (roll of 10) to private (roll 20) but he cannot get secret. He cannot astrogate, disable/erase programs, improve access to a computer, or reprogram a droid. Use the Force: A force user who is untrained can only search his feelings (roll 10), sense surroundings (roll of 10) or sent a telepathic message (roll of 10 for same planet, 20 for same quadrant, cannot cross quadrants). He cannot use force powers, enter a force trance, move light objects, or sense the force.</blockquote>

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