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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8773381" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>The thing to me is that the Mastermind has the wrong name. It's almost the opposite of a mastermind - a last minute pitch-hitter and support rather than someone who plans things in advance. But <em>by the standards of non-Arcane Trickster rogue subclasses it's fine</em>. And if we only count pre-Tasha's it might even be the best of a bad bunch. 90% of campaigns don't reach level 13 so I'm only going to look at the level 3 and level 9 abilities.</p><p></p><p><strong>Mastermind level 3</strong> </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Three tool and two language proficiencies plus mimicry. Not a bad combination for what it's obviously designed for.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Use your bonus action to give other people advantage. Your bonus action is already overloaded - but this is still nice and flexible and useful both in combat and out. Very useful out of combat as it's a freebie.</li> </ul><p><strong>Mastermind level 9</strong></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A set of niche social abilities that take a minute to use. Can be useful in exploration - but not that useful.</li> </ul><p>Now let's compare to the other rogue subclasses.</p><p></p><p><strong>Assassin</strong>. Two proficiencies. Level 3 ability is situational - you both need surprise <em>and</em> to win initiative for it to trigger at all. Level 9 notoriously takes a week to use and is at best a ribbon ability. The Mastermind is IMO significantly better unless you have a very friendly DM. Honestly this has all the non-concept problems of the Mastermind turned up to 11.</p><p></p><p><strong>Thief.</strong> Better at climbing and jumping - two things that get a lot less useful as you level and get flying. Fast Hands is extremely situational (occasionally scene stealing but will almost never come up). Level 9 gives you advantage to sneak slowly. Given the priority rogues place on sneaking to the point of Expertise and the fact that at level 11 they will never make bad rolls I'm ranking the thief behind the Mastermind. It of course also wants a friendly DM for the sleight of hand as bonus action to be relevant.</p><p></p><p>So the Mastermind is at least competitive with and IMO at advantage against both non-magic PHB rogue subclasses. If we're using the PHB as a benchmark there is nothing at all wrong with the Mastermind. Now onto Xanathar's</p><p></p><p><strong>Inquisitive.</strong> Extra uses for bonus actions at level 3 - in this case trying to spot someone (actually useful) or decipher clues (not so useful). Also better at insight and can use Insight to take advantage of Sneak Attack. Not really that useful as (a) it's unreliable and (b) it encourages you not to focus fire - you get to use Sneak Attack against a foe adjacent to an ally. At level 9 it's advantage on perception and insight if you move slowly. Again not seeing this as that great.</p><p></p><p><strong>Scout.</strong> Two free skills with Expertise. Also use your reaction to disengage - which is situationally useful (especially when you have a normal reaction-to-take-half-damage at level 5). Yay? At level 9 you walk faster. Useful - but again situational. Not seeing this as notably better than the Mastermind.</p><p></p><p><strong>Swashbuckler.</strong> Can sneak attack when dueling, can disengage for free, and gains charisma to initiative checks at level 3. Level 9 gains a taunt and a charm. This probably is the pick of the bunch. </p><p></p><p>Frankly the Mastermind isn't out of line with the other Xanathar's subclasses either. So onto Tasha's</p><p></p><p><strong>Phantom.</strong> Level 3: one floating skill and the ability to do a half-sneak attack proficiency times per day. I don't think this is notably better - but the Level 9 ability to have soul trinkets for advantage on Con saves, extra damage, or a single question answered with no obligation to be truthful <em>is</em>. </p><p></p><p><strong>Soulknife.</strong> OK. So this is a psychic subclass that can throw down with the Arcane Trickster. Great at skills, has telepathy, has a ranged telepathic stab at L3. At L9 can turn misses into hits - and can teleport as a bonus action a limited number of times.</p><p></p><p>So. To sum up. The problem isn't that the Mastermind is a bad subclass. It's that the majority of the rogue subclasses are bad - and this needs fixing. The Mastermind is in line with how the class was benchmarked - and doesn't belong on the same list with the PDK or the Four Elements Monk.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8773381, member: 87792"] The thing to me is that the Mastermind has the wrong name. It's almost the opposite of a mastermind - a last minute pitch-hitter and support rather than someone who plans things in advance. But [I]by the standards of non-Arcane Trickster rogue subclasses it's fine[/I]. And if we only count pre-Tasha's it might even be the best of a bad bunch. 90% of campaigns don't reach level 13 so I'm only going to look at the level 3 and level 9 abilities. [B]Mastermind level 3[/B] [LIST] [*]Three tool and two language proficiencies plus mimicry. Not a bad combination for what it's obviously designed for. [*]Use your bonus action to give other people advantage. Your bonus action is already overloaded - but this is still nice and flexible and useful both in combat and out. Very useful out of combat as it's a freebie. [/LIST] [B]Mastermind level 9[/B] [LIST] [*]A set of niche social abilities that take a minute to use. Can be useful in exploration - but not that useful. [/LIST] Now let's compare to the other rogue subclasses. [B]Assassin[/B]. Two proficiencies. Level 3 ability is situational - you both need surprise [I]and[/I] to win initiative for it to trigger at all. Level 9 notoriously takes a week to use and is at best a ribbon ability. The Mastermind is IMO significantly better unless you have a very friendly DM. Honestly this has all the non-concept problems of the Mastermind turned up to 11. [B]Thief.[/B] Better at climbing and jumping - two things that get a lot less useful as you level and get flying. Fast Hands is extremely situational (occasionally scene stealing but will almost never come up). Level 9 gives you advantage to sneak slowly. Given the priority rogues place on sneaking to the point of Expertise and the fact that at level 11 they will never make bad rolls I'm ranking the thief behind the Mastermind. It of course also wants a friendly DM for the sleight of hand as bonus action to be relevant. So the Mastermind is at least competitive with and IMO at advantage against both non-magic PHB rogue subclasses. If we're using the PHB as a benchmark there is nothing at all wrong with the Mastermind. Now onto Xanathar's [B]Inquisitive.[/B] Extra uses for bonus actions at level 3 - in this case trying to spot someone (actually useful) or decipher clues (not so useful). Also better at insight and can use Insight to take advantage of Sneak Attack. Not really that useful as (a) it's unreliable and (b) it encourages you not to focus fire - you get to use Sneak Attack against a foe adjacent to an ally. At level 9 it's advantage on perception and insight if you move slowly. Again not seeing this as that great. [B]Scout.[/B] Two free skills with Expertise. Also use your reaction to disengage - which is situationally useful (especially when you have a normal reaction-to-take-half-damage at level 5). Yay? At level 9 you walk faster. Useful - but again situational. Not seeing this as notably better than the Mastermind. [B]Swashbuckler.[/B] Can sneak attack when dueling, can disengage for free, and gains charisma to initiative checks at level 3. Level 9 gains a taunt and a charm. This probably is the pick of the bunch. Frankly the Mastermind isn't out of line with the other Xanathar's subclasses either. So onto Tasha's [B]Phantom.[/B] Level 3: one floating skill and the ability to do a half-sneak attack proficiency times per day. I don't think this is notably better - but the Level 9 ability to have soul trinkets for advantage on Con saves, extra damage, or a single question answered with no obligation to be truthful [I]is[/I]. [B]Soulknife.[/B] OK. So this is a psychic subclass that can throw down with the Arcane Trickster. Great at skills, has telepathy, has a ranged telepathic stab at L3. At L9 can turn misses into hits - and can teleport as a bonus action a limited number of times. So. To sum up. The problem isn't that the Mastermind is a bad subclass. It's that the majority of the rogue subclasses are bad - and this needs fixing. The Mastermind is in line with how the class was benchmarked - and doesn't belong on the same list with the PDK or the Four Elements Monk. [/QUOTE]
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