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Use Magic Missile to determine whether a statue is an Object or a Creature?(!)
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<blockquote data-quote="Hawk Diesel" data-source="post: 7595990" data-attributes="member: 59848"><p>I think there is a difference there though. Many of those creatures have some common relationship. Demons, celestial, they are planar beings and are tied to a particular abstract concept manifested into a specific form. Undead are described often as powered by a particular kind of negative energy.</p><p></p><p>But how would a spell be able to determine if those things are creatures versus objects? How could a spell know that a golem, animated object, or even purely mechanical automaton is somehow different than a rock? What is inherently different about a boulder or lake of lava versus an earth elemental or fire elemental? These distinctions, at least for me, are qualitatively different and distinct.</p><p></p><p>Additionally, a spell that normally targets celestial can still be cast on a demon or person. I don't think the caster inherently knows if the spell was successful or not, but this only emerges if there is an observable change that is intended. Using a spell meant to charm celestials to target a demon may still have some noticeable effect. It may cause smoke to rise from the demon, cause it mild pain or irritation, drive it to anger, or any number of effects or non-effects. The important thing is that the spell does not cause the demon to be charmed in the way that the caster expects. A DM may say that such a spell instead overwhelms the demon and causes damage. Or maybe it works, just not as long or effectively. Or maybe it works too well and turns the demon to stone.</p><p></p><p>A bow fired at a bale of hay won't kill or harm the hay as far as we can tell. If it is alive or dead afterwards doesn't matter. The effect that we see is the arrow embedded within the hay. If the hay was alive (mimic hay bale?), it might respond. Or if it died instantly, it might not respond. The point is that the archer doesn't know anything about that bale of hay except that an arrow is poking out of it. I think spells should function in a similar manner. The caster doesn't intuitively know what it means when the magic missile hits a selected target. Only that they see it hit, and they observe any change following the strike which may correlate with the use of the spell. But correlation is not causation.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hawk Diesel, post: 7595990, member: 59848"] I think there is a difference there though. Many of those creatures have some common relationship. Demons, celestial, they are planar beings and are tied to a particular abstract concept manifested into a specific form. Undead are described often as powered by a particular kind of negative energy. But how would a spell be able to determine if those things are creatures versus objects? How could a spell know that a golem, animated object, or even purely mechanical automaton is somehow different than a rock? What is inherently different about a boulder or lake of lava versus an earth elemental or fire elemental? These distinctions, at least for me, are qualitatively different and distinct. Additionally, a spell that normally targets celestial can still be cast on a demon or person. I don't think the caster inherently knows if the spell was successful or not, but this only emerges if there is an observable change that is intended. Using a spell meant to charm celestials to target a demon may still have some noticeable effect. It may cause smoke to rise from the demon, cause it mild pain or irritation, drive it to anger, or any number of effects or non-effects. The important thing is that the spell does not cause the demon to be charmed in the way that the caster expects. A DM may say that such a spell instead overwhelms the demon and causes damage. Or maybe it works, just not as long or effectively. Or maybe it works too well and turns the demon to stone. A bow fired at a bale of hay won't kill or harm the hay as far as we can tell. If it is alive or dead afterwards doesn't matter. The effect that we see is the arrow embedded within the hay. If the hay was alive (mimic hay bale?), it might respond. Or if it died instantly, it might not respond. The point is that the archer doesn't know anything about that bale of hay except that an arrow is poking out of it. I think spells should function in a similar manner. The caster doesn't intuitively know what it means when the magic missile hits a selected target. Only that they see it hit, and they observe any change following the strike which may correlate with the use of the spell. But correlation is not causation. [/QUOTE]
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