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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GlassJaw" data-source="post: 7881684" data-attributes="member: 22103">Totally agree. Good design advice in general.I've been looking at PF2E a bit and I was shocked when I saw proficiency bonuses. They have 5 levels of proficiency that add bonuses of +0, +2, +4, +6, and +8. So far, so good. But the kicker is once you become trained, you also add your level! Also looks like your ability scores increase faster. So much for bounded accuracy.That means your level and ability modifier will quickly outweigh your proficiency bonus by a large margin. I would do the complete opposite and make training count for more. Anyway, this is just one example of modifiers that make the d20 roll less important.With 5E's bounded accuracy, it's more resilient to modifier scaling. In fact, if you make +6 the highest modifier (which is what Expertise would grant you at level 17), you are placing more value on the die roll and ability score modifier. All depends on the DC range and success rate you are going for.I might experiment with a scale like this:Untrained: +0Trained: +ProficiencySkilled: +Proficiency +2Expert: +Proficiency +4Master: +Proficiency +6You could expand this by adding a mechanic for auto-success depending on the proficiency level. Could be dependent on the (so DM discretion) or "hard-coded" based on DC. For example, if you are an Expert, you automatically succeed on checks of DC 10 or less. Could also be word such that you roll is never considered less than 10. So you essentially get a "passive" score in that skill. Just an idea.This couldn't be done in a vacuum of course. Some races and classes would need to be tweaked and there would need to be a mechanism for introducing these new levels. I do like that PF2E has additional avenues for customization but holy smokes, the PF2E Core book reads like legalese. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f635.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt="o_O" title="Er... what?    o_O"  data-smilie="12"data-shortname="o_O" />My gut says there happy medium to be found with 5E's core mechanics and scaling but with some of the systems broken up to be more granular and providing more choice.</blockquote>

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