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<blockquote data-quote="Vince_Snetterton" data-source="post: 8473195" data-attributes="member: 7033114">Getting back to the title of the thread, using ability checks against another player is a form of PvP, and most DM's I know ban that from a table. Further, those people that seem to care about &quot;player agency&quot; (I frankly don't) should lose their minds at the idea of another player (or NPC) using some DC based skill check against their player, since the player who is &quot;the focus of the ability check&quot; has ZERO agency. That player has no part in the activity. The DM sets a DC for the activity, and the active player makes a roll. The &quot;focusee&quot; has no participation in the activity, and must abide by the roll of the other player against the DC set by the DM. There was a massive thread where a number of people said that charm based spells were &quot;evil&quot;. In almost every charm based spell, the &quot;focusee&quot; gets some kind of savings throw. That is not the case with a Persuasion check initiated by the DM and another player.If the people that hate charm based spells have any logical consistency they should hate various ability checks even more. Lastly, doing some math, I will throw out the example of an Eloquence Bard. That Bard will almost certainly have Expertise in Persuasion and/or Deception and/or Intimidation. At 3rd level the minimum a char would roll, assuming Prof in a CHA based ability check, is a 15 (16 in CHA score) . Now let's extrapolate that char out to 9th level. That minimum just became 10 + 5 (CHA =20) + 10 (expertise) = 25. Let's tack on a Luck Stone for good measure. The MINIMUM said char rolls is a 26. Beating a DC of 30 occurs 35% of the time. To allow a char the option to use such a weapon against another char is a horrible decision. And I am just visualizing the reactions at my table if I said &quot;the NPC Eloquence Bard just rolled a 32 on Persuasion, and it makes sense for you to come with the bard, alone, into the bowels of the Dark Keep&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Vince_Snetterton, post: 8473195, member: 7033114"] Getting back to the title of the thread, using ability checks against another player is a form of PvP, and most DM's I know ban that from a table. Further, those people that seem to care about "player agency" (I frankly don't) should lose their minds at the idea of another player (or NPC) using some DC based skill check against their player, since the player who is "the focus of the ability check" has ZERO agency. That player has no part in the activity. The DM sets a DC for the activity, and the active player makes a roll. The "focusee" has no participation in the activity, and must abide by the roll of the other player against the DC set by the DM. There was a massive thread where a number of people said that charm based spells were "evil". In almost every charm based spell, the "focusee" gets some kind of savings throw. That is not the case with a Persuasion check initiated by the DM and another player. If the people that hate charm based spells have any logical consistency they should hate various ability checks even more. Lastly, doing some math, I will throw out the example of an Eloquence Bard. That Bard will almost certainly have Expertise in Persuasion and/or Deception and/or Intimidation. At 3rd level the minimum a char would roll, assuming Prof in a CHA based ability check, is a 15 (16 in CHA score) . Now let's extrapolate that char out to 9th level. That minimum just became 10 + 5 (CHA =20) + 10 (expertise) = 25. Let's tack on a Luck Stone for good measure. The MINIMUM said char rolls is a 26. Beating a DC of 30 occurs 35% of the time. To allow a char the option to use such a weapon against another char is a horrible decision. And I am just visualizing the reactions at my table if I said "the NPC Eloquence Bard just rolled a 32 on Persuasion, and it makes sense for you to come with the bard, alone, into the bowels of the Dark Keep". [/QUOTE]

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