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<blockquote data-quote="iserith" data-source="post: 8474414" data-attributes="member: 97077">It's not the same thing. You describing an NPC lying to the PCs is describing the environment - step 1. The PCs saying they are lying to an NPC is step 2 - describing their actions. Like any action, you can resolve it with an ability check if there's an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence for failure.I won't do that, but I will agree nobody needs to be an expert on this stuff. It is a game for ages 12+ after all. You just need to be able to describe the environment (as DM) or describe your actions with reasonable specificity (as player). In this case, the DM just needs to say the lie that the Demon Prince says. What the players decide to do in the face of that is up to them. They might take him at his word. They might think it's sus. They might try to assess his body language to determine truthfulness. Only then do you resolve the action.The rules for attitude are in an explicitly optional rules space. I don't think it bears mentioning unless we're specifically talking about those rules. My expectation is that almost nobody uses them anyway.It is, however, not the same between PCs and NPCs. A PC is lying to an NPC to get it to believe something for some purpose. Once that is assessed, the DM can call for a check, if there's an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence for failure. An NPC lying to a PC is just describing the environment - no roll. What the PCs do with that is up to them. Since it is up to them, there can be no ability check because there is no uncertainty as to the outcome of the task. The players say whether they believe the NPC or not or take some other action.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="iserith, post: 8474414, member: 97077"] It's not the same thing. You describing an NPC lying to the PCs is describing the environment - step 1. The PCs saying they are lying to an NPC is step 2 - describing their actions. Like any action, you can resolve it with an ability check if there's an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence for failure. I won't do that, but I will agree nobody needs to be an expert on this stuff. It is a game for ages 12+ after all. You just need to be able to describe the environment (as DM) or describe your actions with reasonable specificity (as player). In this case, the DM just needs to say the lie that the Demon Prince says. What the players decide to do in the face of that is up to them. They might take him at his word. They might think it's sus. They might try to assess his body language to determine truthfulness. Only then do you resolve the action. The rules for attitude are in an explicitly optional rules space. I don't think it bears mentioning unless we're specifically talking about those rules. My expectation is that almost nobody uses them anyway. It is, however, not the same between PCs and NPCs. A PC is lying to an NPC to get it to believe something for some purpose. Once that is assessed, the DM can call for a check, if there's an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence for failure. An NPC lying to a PC is just describing the environment - no roll. What the PCs do with that is up to them. Since it is up to them, there can be no ability check because there is no uncertainty as to the outcome of the task. The players say whether they believe the NPC or not or take some other action. [/QUOTE]

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