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<blockquote data-quote="Charlaquin" data-source="post: 8474419" data-attributes="member: 6779196">I think there’s a breakdown of communication here, because to my knowledge, nobody is claiming charisma checks work differently than other checks. What’s being claimed is that all checks are called for to resolve uncertainty in the outcome of actions. If there is no uncertainty, there is no rules supporting the use of an ability check. What we are fundamentally disagreeing about is whether or not the outcome of an action made to socially influence a PC is uncertain. I say that it is not, because the general rule (or principle if you like; I have no objection to calling it that) is that a player decides what their character does, so an action that aims to force a player’s character to make a certain decision cannot succeed. Your counter argument so far has been that an ability check, as a game mechanic, constitutes a specific exception to that general principle. I disagree, because in order for an ability check to be employed with the support of the rules, there must first be uncertainty in the outcome. To say that an ability check is an exception to the general principle of PC agency presupposes that it’s appropriate to make an ability check to resolve the action that would supplant their agency. My position is that it is not.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Charlaquin, post: 8474419, member: 6779196"] I think there’s a breakdown of communication here, because to my knowledge, nobody is claiming charisma checks work differently than other checks. What’s being claimed is that all checks are called for to resolve uncertainty in the outcome of actions. If there is no uncertainty, there is no rules supporting the use of an ability check. What we are fundamentally disagreeing about is whether or not the outcome of an action made to socially influence a PC is uncertain. I say that it is not, because the general rule (or principle if you like; I have no objection to calling it that) is that a player decides what their character does, so an action that aims to force a player’s character to make a certain decision cannot succeed. Your counter argument so far has been that an ability check, as a game mechanic, constitutes a specific exception to that general principle. I disagree, because in order for an ability check to be employed with the support of the rules, there must first be uncertainty in the outcome. To say that an ability check is an exception to the general principle of PC agency presupposes that it’s appropriate to [I]make[/I] an ability check to resolve the action that would supplant their agency. My position is that it is not. [/QUOTE]

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