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<blockquote data-quote="Bill Zebub" data-source="post: 8475132" data-attributes="member: 7031982">I don't think that's sigh-worthy.&nbsp; I asked you myself, upthread, if you were just invoking rule zero, and since then several times I've been scratching my head, thinking, &quot;This sure sounds like rule zero.&quot;&nbsp; So I don't fault [USER=6779196]@Charlaquin[/USER] for assuming that.I can think of 4 possibilities here:1) You are, in fact, being &quot;treated poorly&quot; (although I don't think so)2) Your arguments are so far over our heads that we poor mortals can't follow along3) You aren't as clear as you seem to think4) Your logic is flawedI'm betting on #3, although maybe there's some #4 in there.What I'm having trouble figuring out is the place where you and [USER=6779196]@Charlaquin[/USER] diverge.&nbsp; Is it possible that you're disagreeing about order of precedence between &quot;the player decides&quot; and the description of the play loop?&nbsp; That is, [USER=6779196]@Charlaquin[/USER] thinks the play loop is the more general, and the &quot;the player decides&quot; is more specific, and you think it's the other way around?And how is it, if you're not relying on the &quot;player decides&quot; passage, that you conclude that PCs are immune to Cha proficiencies by RAI?&nbsp; (I had to re-read that to make sure you weren't saying that it's simply a fundamental belief of yours.&nbsp; But, nope, you are in fact saying it's in the rules.)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Bill Zebub, post: 8475132, member: 7031982"] I don't think that's sigh-worthy. I asked you myself, upthread, if you were just invoking rule zero, and since then several times I've been scratching my head, thinking, "This sure [I]sounds[/I] like rule zero." So I don't fault [USER=6779196]@Charlaquin[/USER] for assuming that. I can think of 4 possibilities here: 1) You are, in fact, being "treated poorly" (although I don't think so) 2) Your arguments are so far over our heads that we poor mortals can't follow along 3) You aren't as clear as you seem to think 4) Your logic is flawed I'm betting on #3, although maybe there's some #4 in there. What I'm having trouble figuring out is the place where you and [USER=6779196]@Charlaquin[/USER] diverge. Is it possible that you're disagreeing about order of precedence between "the player decides" and the description of the play loop? That is, [USER=6779196]@Charlaquin[/USER] thinks the play loop is the more general, and the "the player decides" is more specific, and you think it's the other way around? And how is it, if you're not relying on the "player decides" passage, that you conclude that PCs are immune to Cha proficiencies by RAI? (I had to re-read that to make sure you weren't saying that it's simply a fundamental belief of yours. But, nope, you are in fact saying it's in the rules.) [/QUOTE]

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