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<blockquote data-quote="Bill Zebub" data-source="post: 8477306" data-attributes="member: 7031982">For an NPC acting on a PC?Whether you describe it as somebody approving a check or asking for a check it's the same thing.&nbsp; And it only occurs if it is determined that the attempt does not succeed nor fail automatically. The question is: who determines that?As I argued upthread, if you think DM should decide whether their own NPCs, acting on PCs, should succeed automatically, then we may as well stop arguing because we're never going to agreeAnd if you argue that you skip that step when it's an NPC acting on a PC, then we're not using the prescribed play loop, so I don't know where you're getting that new rule from.So that means the player must decide whether the NPCs attempt (to persuade, intimidate, belittle, seduce) will automatically succeed or fail (in its goal of altering their PC's behavior).&nbsp; Not only is it the only logical answer, it also maintains the symmetry some people crave.&nbsp; And as long as we agree on that, I guess I don't really care if it's the DM who &quot;calls for a roll&quot; in the case of uncertainty.&nbsp; The player had their chance to declare the attempt was not going to work, so if they want to turn it over to the DM that's fine.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Bill Zebub, post: 8477306, member: 7031982"] For an NPC acting on a PC? Whether you describe it as somebody approving a check or asking for a check it's the same thing. And it only occurs if it is determined that the attempt does not succeed nor fail automatically. The question is: who determines that? As I argued upthread, if you think DM should decide whether their own NPCs, acting on PCs, should succeed automatically, then we may as well stop arguing because we're never going to agree And if you argue that you skip that step when it's an NPC acting on a PC, then we're not using the prescribed play loop, so I don't know where you're getting that new rule from. So that means the player must decide whether the NPCs attempt (to persuade, intimidate, belittle, seduce) will automatically succeed or fail (in its goal of altering their PC's behavior). Not only is it the only logical answer, it also maintains the symmetry some people crave. And as long as we agree on that, I guess I don't really care if it's the DM who "calls for a roll" in the case of uncertainty. The player had their chance to declare the attempt was not going to work, so if they want to turn it over to the DM that's fine. [/QUOTE]

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