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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8478892" data-attributes="member: 71699">A group could do it that way. If our thought here is we need to do this to protect prior certainty, then for me that is misguided.I thought I should call out BTW that my position is that it is clear RAI - strongly supported in RAW - that ability checks shouldn't override player agency. For what it's worth, I draw a distinction between agency (does) and thought (thinks). Holistically the rules uphold player agency while being forgiving on thought (so a player can be misled, and that doesn't raise any particular conflict.) DM decides what is uncertain.I'm not sure what the motive would be to demand prior certainty as it creates problems where none need exist. The rest of the process is right.Yes! The passive check applies, or a check can be made. It's up to the DM. Albeit, to me, it is more like Stealth.Of course. That is your approach, but surely you can agree that it is up to each group whether their DM will telegraph like that?More like Stealth, I believe. The NPC check goes against PC passive.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 8478892, member: 71699"] A group could do it that way. If our thought here is we need to do this to protect prior certainty, then for me that is misguided. I thought I should call out BTW that my position is that it is clear RAI - strongly supported in RAW - that ability checks shouldn't override player agency. For what it's worth, I draw a distinction between agency (does) and thought (thinks). Holistically the rules uphold player agency while being forgiving on thought (so a player can be misled, and that doesn't raise any particular conflict.) DM decides what is uncertain. I'm not sure what the motive would be to demand prior certainty as it creates problems where none need exist. The rest of the process is right. Yes! The passive check applies, or a check can be made. It's up to the DM. Albeit, to me, it is more like Stealth. Of course. That is your approach, but surely you can agree that it is up to each group whether their DM will telegraph like that? More like Stealth, I believe. The NPC check goes against PC passive. [/QUOTE]

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