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<blockquote data-quote="Bill Zebub" data-source="post: 8479827" data-attributes="member: 7031982">Then how come when somebody lies, some people believe the lie and some people don't?&nbsp; There is no objective &quot;good job lying&quot;; it depends on who is listening.You're still missing the point.No, what I'm saying here is that if there's nobody to hide from you can't succeed at hiding, because the term is meaningless without an observer.&nbsp; You can try to make yourself hidden, but without knowing the details of an observer it's impossible to determine success.&nbsp; Imagine you find the PERFECT hiding spot, and you roll a 35 with all your bonuses.&nbsp; If the observer is an ant that crawls up your leg, you aren't hidden.&nbsp; If the observer can see in other parts of the EM spectrum, you aren't hidden.&nbsp; If the observer has X-Ray vision, you aren't hidden.So, again, until you factor in the observer, &quot;hiding&quot; can't be successful.&nbsp; Thus the declared action is transitive, meaning it needs a target, and &quot;success&quot; means that target is unable to find you, not just that you did a good job hiding.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Bill Zebub, post: 8479827, member: 7031982"] Then how come when somebody lies, some people believe the lie and some people don't? There is no objective "good job lying"; it depends on who is listening. You're still missing the point. No, what I'm saying here is that if there's nobody to hide from you [I]can't succeed at hiding[/I], because the term is meaningless without an observer. You can try to make yourself hidden, but without knowing the details of an observer it's impossible to determine success. Imagine you find the PERFECT hiding spot, and you roll a 35 with all your bonuses. If the observer is an ant that crawls up your leg, you aren't hidden. If the observer can see in other parts of the EM spectrum, you aren't hidden. If the observer has X-Ray vision, you aren't hidden. So, again, until you factor in the observer, "hiding" can't be successful. Thus the declared action is transitive, meaning it needs a target, and "success" means that target is unable to find you, not just that you did a good job hiding. [/QUOTE]

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