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<blockquote data-quote="HammerMan" data-source="post: 8481481" data-attributes="member: 84112">again the same as climbing the mountain. The PC can't say &quot;I rip off the bar and open the door&quot; (I mean they can say it, but the Str/athletics check can say they ripp the bar off and it still be magically sealed)The PC can't say that intimidating them will make them talk (again educated guess would be yes, and they can assume, but it is up to the DM)they work when we have a moment in fiction where something can succeed but isn't guaranteed to succeed and we need a neutral abirture because there is a meaningful results form a pass/fail...&nbsp; (I wouldn't normally describe it that way but that is teh best we have come to in thread)perfect we agree.yup see my wordy description right above here on track...ow we added FEEL now, that changes things... feel can be a sense or a response. I can feel something is off (outside my control) I can feel feed up with having to keep explaining myself (50/50 here) or I can feel happy (I think minus magic 100% in control of the player) we have been using think to avoid the 'feel' issue of English words being complex. However if YOU decided that in YOUR games that is never a possibility or uncertainty that is fine... it isn't RAW, but it is fine, I even understand how you interpret it that way, even if I don't.&nbsp; -Raw is anything can be uncertain and it is up to the DM, my own house rules would replace DM with table, but I think that is clear-Okay, so we both feel that NPC can make any check a PC can, we just disagree on the fact that in your reading 1 sub set of attribute checks is something that can not be used becuse you (within your right as a DM) have decided and ruled it can never be uncertain. DO you understand why that seems like a carve out by other words (and a much more complex work around to get to it)?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="HammerMan, post: 8481481, member: 84112"] again the same as climbing the mountain. The PC can't say "I rip off the bar and open the door" (I mean they can say it, but the Str/athletics check can say they ripp the bar off and it still be magically sealed) The PC can't say that intimidating them will make them talk (again educated guess would be yes, and they can assume, but it is up to the DM) they work when we have a moment in fiction where something can succeed but isn't guaranteed to succeed and we need a neutral abirture because there is a meaningful results form a pass/fail... (I wouldn't normally describe it that way but that is teh best we have come to in thread) perfect we agree. yup see my wordy description right above here on track... ow we added FEEL now, that changes things... feel can be a sense or a response. I can feel something is off (outside my control) I can feel feed up with having to keep explaining myself (50/50 here) or I can feel happy (I think minus magic 100% in control of the player) we have been using think to avoid the 'feel' issue of English words being complex. However if YOU decided that in YOUR games that is never a possibility or uncertainty that is fine... it isn't RAW, but it is fine, I even understand how you interpret it that way, even if I don't. -Raw is anything can be uncertain and it is up to the DM, my own house rules would replace DM with table, but I think that is clear- Okay, so we both feel that NPC can make any check a PC can, we just disagree on the fact that in your reading 1 sub set of attribute checks is something that can not be used becuse you (within your right as a DM) have decided and ruled it can never be uncertain. DO you understand why that seems like a carve out by other words (and a much more complex work around to get to it)? [/QUOTE]

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