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<blockquote data-quote="Charlaquin" data-source="post: 8482124" data-attributes="member: 6779196">Thats disanalogous. In the first scenario it’s the player deciding what their character thinks, says, or does and an obstacle introduces uncertainty into whether or not they will succeed. In the second, it’s some other character deciding what the player’s character will think, say, or do if they succeed, which would violate PHB 185.It’s really frustrating that you keep saying this when my argument neither asks for nor requires a carve-out.A challenge can introduce uncertainty into the outcome of an action that would otherwise succeed due to lack of ability to fail or lack of meaningful stakes. It can’t introduce uncertainty into the outcome of an action that would otherwise fail due to being unable to succeed - if the player declares they try to jump to the moon, the DM can’t make the outcome of that action uncertain by making it more challenging. Likewise, if a player decides what their character does, an attempt to make them do something not of the player’s decision can’t succeed (unless the player decides it does), so introducing a challenge can’t make success possible when it wouldn’t otherwise be.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Charlaquin, post: 8482124, member: 6779196"] Thats disanalogous. In the first scenario it’s the player deciding what their character thinks, says, or does and an obstacle introduces uncertainty into whether or not they will succeed. In the second, it’s some other character deciding what the player’s character will think, say, or do if they succeed, which would violate PHB 185. It’s really frustrating that you keep saying this when my argument neither asks for nor requires a carve-out. A challenge can introduce uncertainty into the outcome of an action that would otherwise succeed due to lack of ability to fail or lack of meaningful stakes. It can’t introduce uncertainty into the outcome of an action that would otherwise fail due to being unable to succeed - if the player declares they try to jump to the moon, the DM can’t make the outcome of that action uncertain by making it [I]more challenging[/I]. Likewise, if a player decides what their character does, an attempt to make them do something not of the player’s decision can’t succeed (unless the player decides it does), so introducing a challenge can’t make success possible when it wouldn’t otherwise be. [/QUOTE]

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