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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8482945" data-attributes="member: 71699">It strikes me that my latest also bears meaningfully on this. You took care to locate decision on challenge (erroneously) in step 1. That's not what the text supports. It puts deciding on challenge just after players say what they want to do. That makes a ton of sense, given that their approach might introduce or obviate challenges. I see now that impacts your model because DM determined challenges modify player determined actions, with the ability to make those that are normally certain, uncertain.As you know, I have a much simpler model in mind, that doesn't pit player against DM in that way. My stance is that the text best supports player in saying what they want to do, and DM in saying how that will be resolved (including deciding if it is uncertain.) It allows groups to take multiple routes to the same destination, which much better fits with 5th edition's overall approach.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 8482945, member: 71699"] It strikes me that my latest also bears meaningfully on this. You took care to locate decision on challenge (erroneously) in step 1. That's not what the text supports. It puts deciding on challenge just after players say what they want to do. That makes a ton of sense, given that their approach might introduce or obviate challenges. I see now that impacts your model because DM determined challenges modify player determined actions, with the ability to make those that are normally certain, uncertain. As you know, I have a much simpler model in mind, that doesn't pit player against DM in that way. My stance is that the text best supports player in saying what they want to do, and DM in saying how that will be resolved (including deciding if it is uncertain.) It allows groups to take multiple routes to the same destination, which much better fits with 5th edition's overall approach. [/QUOTE]

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