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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 1899194" data-attributes="member: 5777">Remember, I said 20+ for dex because to do less means allowing extra summons to wander around, and this could be very bad especially with opponents who can use similar tricks or have other things up their sleeves.Still though, it means having yet another decently high stat and so cuts into other stats. There is still a cost there.With only a 14 dex you are looking at a pretty minor boost, at that point it is pretty much always better to 'not' use this tactic. For reasons that I gave earlier.Power attack is really only good for two handed weapon fighters, cleave does follow directly along the lines of use for those guys, which is probably why one is the prereq for the other <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />While they are both very nice, I have seen many, many builds, even thf builds, that do not get either of these. It is mainly because there are so many other feats that they need, but also because cleave just isnt always terribly useful. Having a feat that is almost never used just feels like a waste.Combat reflexes and a reach weapon is pretty nice but it doesnt help great cleave all that much. The hard part can be a valid target but in my experience it is nearly impossible as levels go up to get target + knocking enough people out in one hit. That combination, which you need at least 3 people to get to, is just not easy. So not easy in fact as to be pretty much outside of any common use. If they were so easy to let you knock down that many at a time then likely they werent really a threat in the first place. But that is when it is most useful, against targets that dont really matter.Not a bad plan, still very specialized though. Taking two characters to be able to get this even started is a pretty big hit.Still sucks though to do all of this and only get one guy, or to get three, only be able to take out two, and then have the badguy somehow use the third against you <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> After all, if it is common to have such things the bad guy might as well.That brings up another reason why I said such a high dex though, I assumed that with all of those aoo's at once that the higher dex guy would get to act first. Lower dex means you run the risk of someone else taking out your buddies and hitting you instead of the other way around.One guy gives up some resources and his turn so that the other properly built guy can get some extra stuff? See, this is why I like this option, the picture is very odd, but the result is just so interesting.This is why summon guys are good. They have attacks, ignore SR and energy resistance, and can be pretty tough guys when used properly. So I dont see htis as an issue.Are all still useing a round to cast whatever spell instead of doing something else that might be just as effective, and sometimes can be more. Playing with the other guy who has resources spent on this tactic <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />I know you are not saying against, just disagreeing a bit, I just wanted to point out that most of what you are saying it already taken care of. One can use a lower dex, but that causes problems with not being able to take advantage properly to get the benefit all the way to it backfiring. The feats might be ones that are common for certain builds but that does not mean it doesnt take 4 feats to do this, along with one (great cleave) that is, imo, just about worthless. Cleave itself is questionable, but nice at lower levels. At higher levels it almost never matters, but it is a nice bit of flavor now and then. Needing that extra person to burn resources to get it going is just insult to injury at that point <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />sadly that is the other problem <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown    :("  data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" /> summon spells take a full round to get off, which means that chances of disrupting this tactic are 'huge'. Someone might move, terrain might change, someone might do something to the fighter type, someone might do something to the caster, or who knows what else. A round can be a long time to hope that everything stays mostly static <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />It is a very interesting combo though. Anyway though, I shouldnt say much more, I made my piece above so all I can do now is confuse matters. Just wanted to say a few things..lolHigh cost, decent reward, lots of specialization. The epitome of d&d right?</blockquote>

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