Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 1901376" data-attributes="member: 2011">No it doesn't.The word manifestation merely means that they appear. It doesn't indicate whether they are real or not. Go reread your own dictionary definition.Illusions are "real" in the sense that my PC can manifest one and your PC can see it. That does not make it a moral issue to destroy an illusion.What indicates whether they are "flesh and blood" creatures vs. "magical" creatures is:1) Extraplaner - Not of this Earth. Hence, not flesh and blood in the traditional sense. "Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose"2) Short duration - They are conjured and go back where they came from. Whether they came from a sea of identical creatures on a demi-plane or a tiny little house with a garden and a family on that demi-plane is unknown. For all we know, they could be volunteers and love to die and re-die to further a cause.3) Short duration - They poof if they attack a creature and do not overcome it's SR. This indicates that they are NOT normal creatures and not subject to the morality rules of normal creatures. Killing it yourself, or poofing it by having it attack an enemy, or wounding or killing it by having it hold off an enemy is irrelevant.4) Magical Existence – A spell maintains their total existence in the campaign world. They do not exist in an Anti-Magic sphere (unless the caster of the sphere does not overcome their SR), but if the sphere moves, they pop back into existence.5) Immune to Death - These creatures cannot die in the traditional sense from a summoning spell. Hence, the morality of killing them in the plane of existence of the campaign world is irrelevant to them. Saying that you believe it is immoral to kill them is like saying that you believe it is immoral to burn a dead ant with a magnifying glass because you believe it is immoral to burn a living ant with a magnifying glass. They are both ants, but they are not identical.Also, in this particular tactic where if the Fighter hits, he cannot fail to kill the creature (at mid to high level when the fighter has the appropriate feats/equipment and the wizard is willing to give up a lower level spell to get the tactic to work), we have no knowledge if the creature feels pain or not. Since it instantly dies (to our knowledge), instantly disappears, and reforms in 24 hours, there is a reasonable chance that it does not feel pain using this tactic.And it is not necessarily immoral to inflict pain. Doctors do it all of the time in order to heal.You are getting hung up on the fact that they are " intelligent creatures". That does not make it moral or immoral to act in certain ways with respect to them as it would with other similar, but not identical creatures. To assume so is false.Aberrations are creatures. Not usually immoral to kill them.Constructs are creatures. Not usually immoral to kill them.Elementals are creatures. Not usually immoral to kill them.Outsiders are creatures. Not usually immoral to kill them.Plants (i.e. types) are creatures. Not usually immoral to kill them.Undead are creatures. Not usually immoral to kill them.Vermin are creatures. Not usually immoral to kill them.The further away from "social norm" creature types you get, the more obscure the morality rules become. Like in the real world where killing animals is not usually considered immoral.I suspect that many of your PCs have killed many of these types of creatures over time and nobody really gave a rats rearend about the morality of it.Your entire sense or morality here is also skewed by your "real world" morality. In the real world, murdering someone is considered immoral by most people. But, if you could kill someone and they could be summoned back by the authorities with 24 hours, then murder would be a considerably lesser offense in our society (maybe on par with a lesser form of kidnapping as opposed to murder).Murdering an insect in the real world or the game world is typically not considered immoral.The point is that a given DM MIGHT make this a moral issue, but the way WotC set this up does not REQUIRE that this is a moral issue.You want to make it a moral issue in your game, fine.But, that does not necessarily make it one by default, in fact the exact opposite by their intention to NOT make them normal same plane creatures.</blockquote>

Verification