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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Storyteller01" data-source="post: 1901801" data-attributes="member: 20931">1) If someone attacks you with lethal force, you usually do the same in kind. Those that don't are rare, and are either trained to do so or die quickly <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />2) As for the Orcs and Undead, the Dragonstar Campaign setting (the one I'm playing at the moment) has a beautiful rule for this: The Law of Active Morality. In short, being evil is not just cause for an attack. A paladin who attacks evil intelligent undead or Orcs because of their evil aura is looking at jail time, if not the death penalty. Killing unintelligent undead would probably be considered valdalism/property damage <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />3) If the players are caught by surprise, they had best keep the urge to attack in check (Evil DM that I am, being caught flat-footed by neighborhood kids is a real possiblity).4) Is taking what the enemy owns theft. Yes. Happens anyway <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />5) On the flip side, what gives the same king the right to hire privateers, who raid other countries and destroy their trade ships? the arguement is whether it is correct to summon creatures you will kill for a game mechanic, not whose culture is right or wrong.Side note: Im suprised no one has brought differing cultural views into this...6) Or, attack a group of Orcs who have attacked several villages and killed the last messenger sent to offer a last chance to surrender, leave, or or be violently dealt with. Competition for resources generally turns into a conflict, even in nature (using an amoral example)regardless, any of these examples may be seen a moral or immoral, dependant on the situation and circumstances (yes, perspective does matter, unless you have found Utopia <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> ).Now, when sommoning monsters 1) explain how someone who left you an opening, because you are an ally and they are protecting themselves from the BBEG (and you in the process), is suddenly a target for an attempt at the AoO/CLeave. 2) How, after WotC has spent so much time fleshing out celestials and demons (and their half breed fellows), that they are simply magic constructs there to be taken advantage of. And if thwey are illusions, does the attacker/attackee get a save to disbelieve?Also, as had been mentioned earlier, apparently this tactic is more effective than using strength of numbers. Why is this?If I'm not mistaken, the response was 'in the game world, this tactic works better'(paraphrased). But no one can give me an example of someone deliberately killing, with intent to kill,  an ally to gain an extra attack on someone else in real time. Even when Keanue shot his friend, he didn't intend to kill him. He also didn't gain an extra attack; his opponent lost his cover (anyone care to try holding up 180 lbs of dead weight, and still run/aim a pistol <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> ). However, I can give an example of mooks stepping forward, endangering the BBEG (as I mentioned earlier in another thread, upward slash to the leg of a mook that ends with the blade level, ready for a thrust into the BBEG. Works best with a 2 hnd blade. of course, results will vary by weapon type. and please, do not say that a longsword cannot thrust, since it is a slashing weapon or that a dagger cannot slash, because it is piercing. The agruement is't the weapon used, but whether allies count as targets, or if they are really allies if you strike with the intent to kill...)Isn't saying 'in the game world' the same as saying 'by using game mechanincs'.I'm sorry, but if a tactic cannot be plausibly (huge stress on this) replicated in real time then it is just that... a twisting of game mechanics.Edit: and the 'I hit the critter to get it out of the way, it's not my fault it died' doesn't hold water either <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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