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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Geron Raveneye" data-source="post: 1909947" data-attributes="member: 2268">Hmhmm...maybe someone should tell you that just because you shout louder doesn't mean your arguments get better? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> So the game mechanics don't describe the reality of the game anymore, is it that? This neat "It is not really dead" sentence is pretty useless with the preface that the creature has been killed. One excludes the other, by very simple logic. Either it has been killed, then it is dead, or it isn't dead, which means it couldn't have been killed before. Effects that restore life to a slain creature make it "no longer dead" or "alive again". There is no "It is not really dead." That's about as nonsensical as saying "She's not really pregnant, just a little bit."Depends very much on the cleric <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Let me just finish that:"Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate or resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle or true resurrection to restore it to life.MHB 3.5, p. 313Yeah, because they are souls made flesh and blood. Which only means that you kill a soul when you kill a summoned outsider. Congrats. So you don't usually just kill an outsider, you completely obliterate it from the face of creation. You kill a soul. The only redeeming factor of Summon Monster spells is, apparently, that it is able to reform that slain creature as if it was a limited wish or higher.Or is an outsider that was not summoned, but was killed in battle, "not really dead", too?What constitutes being dead, then? Staying dead? Not being resurrected? A character, who was killed in battle, is he "not really dead", too, because his friends will resurrect him as soon as possible?Mate, apparently it's not me not listening. Do me a favour, read beyond my very last post before you try to claim I'm treating summoned monsters as slaves of the summoners.And kindly refrain from trying to attack my morality, okay? Otherwise you're on a fast trip to my ignore list.No comment.Heh...yeah, we're all just assuming. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> Too bad none of us lives in D&D game world, so we could speak from first-hand experience.What you have done is the same the rest of us are doing as well...just that the rest of us freely admit to it: you are interpreting the rules as written to the point you want to argue.You want a  counterargumet, from the rules as written? Fine, for the very last time:1) Using a creature that has been summoned by an ally, and as such does neither qualify as an enemy and neither as an opponent, as a source for an Attack of Opportunity with the intent of killing it to gain a Cleave attack constitutes the act of killing an innocent creature because it is convenient to do so. This is even independent of it being dead or not, it was killed. (And before you try to make me sound like I've admitted to your repeated "the puppy is not really dead, hon" sentence, I still claim that a killed creature is also dead.). There are rare examples where this might be more than a killing out of convenience, and these are different cases.2) “Evil” implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evilcreatures simply have no compassion for others and kill withoutqualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killingfor sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.PHB 3.0, p.88 or PHB 3.5, p. 104Killling an innocent creature out of convenience constitutes an evil act according to the RAW. My "extremely naive opinion" that harming others out of convenience is evil is, in this discussion, not my extremely naive opinion, but the extremely naive opinion of the RAW.Make something out of it. Just don't think getting personal will get you much credit in a discussion like this.</blockquote>

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