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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Water Bob" data-source="post: 5864251" data-attributes="member: 92305">The "problem" I am trying to address is twofold:  (1) I want to know how the Stealth rules in the game are intended to work by the game designers. There are no good examples, logic problems (Encounter Distance is equal to a Spot check? Always?), and unanswered questions (When does a GM make the first Spot check? Does one Spot check serve the entire encounter? If there are many throws, when do you throw them?). A Move Silently check is made during movement, but if you make the check each time you move, you'll make so many checks that you will eventually fail, and stealth becomes impossible. So, if one check serves the entire encounter, at what distance is this check made?   (2) The rules are both abstract and situationally speciific. A Spot check is used to find the encounter distance, sans any map that shows line of site. This is abstract. We don't know the true line of sight that the character faces and we trust the die throw to represent those vision obstacles. Yet, the Spot check suffers a -1 penalty per 10' of distance. This is situationaly specific in that it measures an exact distance.     Too complex? Too much verbage to read? Here's the simple version:   1. Each spotter takes 10 on his spot. This gives him both a Spot skill check result and a maximum distance in which he can spot things. Silaigne has Spot +6, thus his Spot check is 16 to a maximum of 160 feet.   2. Roll the stealther's Hide against a DC equal to the spotter's check. Panther has Hide +8. Result is 12. If the Hide throw is lower than the Spot check, figure the distance at which the spotter will see the stealthing creature by subtracting the two. 16 - 12 = 4. Spot happens at a distance of 40 feet from the Spotter. If the Hide throw is higher than the Spot check, the stealthing creature can move up and Surprise engage the Spotter. The stealthing creature is 100% in his stealth movement.     That's it. That's how complicated it is.  Let's say the panther's Hide result is 12 as indicated above. This means that the panther will stay hidden up to and until the panther comes within 40' of it's target. Once the panther gets within 40' of the spotter, the spotter sees the panther (and presumably combat rounds will start at this point). Why do you think that's complicated?        No, I cover this in the modifier section. If in terrain with long line of sight, a bonus is given to the Spot check. If in limited visiblity, throw a penalty modifier on the Spot check. Plus, there are logical limits to line of sight. On a starless, overcast, pitch-black night, the limit of a character's spot is his lighting. If the fire gives off 40 feet of bright light and 40 feet of shadowy light, then the character can see no father than 80 feet, and an enemy cannot stealth his way closer to the character than 40 feet. Out on a sandy plain, at noon, on a bright blue clear day, visibility may be measured in miles, making it near impossible to use Hide to sneak up on a spotter unless some logical means is used (crawling towards he victim will get you closer).       I think my system above, which is really not my system but a take on the official rules (using the Encounter Distance rule). You roll Hide (or Move Silently) vs. a DC that equals the object's Take 10 of Spot (or Listen). If the Hide check beats the DC, then the stealth character will be able to attack the target, catching the spotter unawares. If the Hide check does not beat the DC, then the stealth character may be caught only if he falls within a certain range from the spotter. If he never falls within that range, the spotter doesn't see him.      Here's a simple example.... Silaigne is walking through the Cracked Lands back to his village. In this terrain, the character has Spot +6. Thus, his reactive check is 16 to a maxiumum range of 160 feet. Think of this as a line-of-sight disc with a 160' radius centered on the character. And the line of sight gets weaker (the disc gets thinner) the father you move away from the character at the center. This is simple, yes? The GM knows that a panther is going to stalk Silaigne because the GM rolled the panther as a random encounter. Simply looking at Silaigne's Spot skill tells the GM that the DC for the panther's Hide throw is DC 16. The GM makes the roll for the panther. d20 roll = 3 + 8 = 11. The panther's Hide result is 11. 16 - 11 = 40. So, now the GM knows that the panther will stay hidden as long as it keeps at a distace of 41 feet plus.  If the panther gets 40 feet or closer to the character, then the panther is spotted and combat rounds begin at that point. It's pretty simple.     EDIT:  BTW, I like your use of the concealment modifier.</blockquote>

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