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Message: <blockquote data-quote="seasong" data-source="post: 1186068" data-attributes="member: 5137">Lich seems to be off a bit - the lowest ECL lich possible is ECL 18, with an effective undead HD vs turning of 15. At the very minimum, turn resistance should be upped for the lich, so he has the vaguest possibility of surviving an encounter with a similar ECL cleric.On top of that, however... the lich, at +4 ECL, gives up two levels worth of spells for a few extra abilities. At +7 ECL, it's no longer even vaguely worth it. It would be like a wizard reaching 11th level and saying, "You know? I've done about all I want to with magic. I think I'll spend the next 7 levels as a Fighter!"... except that the wizard/fighter would get more hit points. And an improved BAB. And 4 fighter feats <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" />.The problem, I think, is that the lich has quite a few low-power abilities, and no high-power abilities at all - the result is a creature who, at +7 ECL, isn't quite good enough at anything (but who, at +4 ECL, has a few more options than it probably should).-seasong</blockquote>