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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Wulf Ratbane" data-source="post: 1241958" data-attributes="member: 94">I'm following you UK. I'll rescind my "arbitrary" comment first and foremost before I go on. It's all arbitrary-- we'll move on the assumption that I trust your judgement in valuing any given factor.But, there's so many uncertainties with the way that character classes were determined. Because you've factored in everything a class gains over 20 levels, it means you're going to be off the mark several times. A 1st level rogue shouldn't be paying for the abilities of a 20th level cleric-- but the Silver Rule does just that. It derives an average and then paints the entire spectrum of monster CRs with the same brush. Every monster gets the same discount.Just, as an example, a rogue with evasion vs. improved evasion, or uncanny dodge vs. improved uncanny dodge; a barbarian with rage and barbarian with tireless rage. The point of the CR/EL system is, essentially, to determine a "fair fight."So take two combatants: A and B.Let's assume both of these guys are CR4.Let's also assume both of these guys have evasion.The ability works equally, does the same exact thing, for both combatants. But, using the Silver Rule, combatant A paid 0.2 for this ability while combatant B only paid 0.17.The point of the CR system should be that every ability is worth the same amount. (Hard numbers.)And, technically speaking, that discount isn't even "accurate:" evasion isn't a class ability of the cleric, yet the cleric's total 131.96 is swinging the avg cost of evasion UP, even though the rogue only comes out to 109.41.To say that, "on average" the spectrum of character classes has an advantage is akin to "averaging" the cost of Spell Resistance across all the monsters, even though some of them have it and some don't, and some of the combatants the monster faces has spells and some don't, etc. What I really want is hard numbers (apples to apples) across the board. Abilty X invariably costs Y.I understand that the Silver Rule is meant to "equalize" what PCs pay for each factor vs what monsters pay for the same factor.I also understand that using the Silver Rule is infinitely easier that reworking all of the factors; as you correctly pointed out, the fact that the character classes DIDN'T "add up" correctly meant that you must have over-costed some things or under-costed others. But the Silver Rule fix doesn't accurately do what you want it to do. It doesn't account for all of the classes that ever could be; it doesn't account for prestige classes or other sources of character class abilities; it doesn't and can't and shouldn't account for a whole lot of things that characters can do that monsters can't.If you bring in a new core class, whose abilities add up to 1.25, the Silver Rule is suddenly broken. The average "character class edge" has changed.Brief side track: Even applying CR to a character is iffy, because an ability that may be worth +0.2 to a monster (say, flight) is worth a whole lot more to a character...Anyhow, my point is this: The Silver Rule really doesn't and can't do what it is that you are trying to make it do. It's a band-aid over the fact that the character classes didn't add up correctly. It's like, "Oops! Well, we can make the data fit if we just multiply everything by xxx..."What I am saying is that you don't need it. Within the first few sentences, you enter into the entire system that you've constructed with the assumption that 1 Character Level = 1 CR. That is a reasonable, workable assumption that the GM who uses your system can live with, and it will always be "true" and "accurate."Going from that, to: 1 Character Level = 1.09 CR for rogues, and 1.32 CR for clerics, for an average of 1.16 for all character classes, even though a 1st level rogue has little resemblance to a 20th level cleric, etc...Well, you're not really making the system more accurate. Why should an orc should get a Silver Rule CR discount, making it more difficult for the 1st level rogue, because the 20th level cleric comes out at 1.32 CR / Character level? Do you really believe the Silver Rule makes ELs more "fair and accurate?"Just seems like an awful lot of extra effort for very little (translated to my opinion: zero) gain.And I still love you. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Wulf</blockquote>

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