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v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)
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<blockquote data-quote="Verequus" data-source="post: 1453780" data-attributes="member: 9135"><p>Hi Upper_Krust!</p><p> </p><p>The first question is solved by myself, so no need to answer - but still the second question is open. But some other unclear points came up through the studying:</p><p> </p><p>What are the differences between v4 and v5 (except more correct numbers and maybe better examples)? I discovered following ones: Different handling of ability scores (Is that already the final version?), handling of the ECL, only three columns instead four at the CR listings (more clearly than before), </p><p>different EL calculations (now easier and yet better).</p><p> </p><p>I caught also some errors:</p><p>-Page 3: The ooze traits CR modifier total for intelligent oozes is 2.7, but it should be 2.6. It is correct in the traits table, not in the breakdown.</p><p>-Page 4: I don't find the Native Subtype, which should offset a little bit of the Outsider-CR penalty.</p><p>-Page 9, in the paragraph about ECLs you wrote: "For thos epeople who wish to use the Silver Rule" - the second space is one letter too much left. Substituting Core Rules: The Balor example is wrong - 2/3 of 33 are 22, not 21.</p><p>-On page 15 the last sentence has been cut off.</p><p>-Page 17, Using Encounter levels: "This latter element allow s DMs" - "allows" with a space, "before requiring a period to rest; recuperate and restock." - a semicolon instead a normal colon. The example with the balor regarding the Opponent Role: "Nemesis versus EL 16-20 Party" - the range must be 17-20, </p><p>so the next row regarding "Background only" is wrong, too. Experience Points: You mention the Party EL, but you don't say, that the Party EL has to be calculated like every other opponent group. Situational modifiers: "Hazardous Conditions for Party = -2 EL" - shouldn't be that +2 EL, because it makes the </p><p>encounter more difficult?</p><p> </p><p>I hope I could help with that listing - there are some errors taken over from version 4. But after over 1000 downloads from v4 before I saw v5 I believed that someone else told you said already. Overall, v5 is an improvement over v4.</p><p> </p><p>Do you include the CR modifiers for the divine abilities etc.?</p><p> </p><p>How many digits after the dot count really for a CR modifier? Three? Or four? Or should they never be rounded?</p><p> </p><p>If character level = CR is true both in the core rules and in your system, how does it come, that the CRs of the monsters are roughly 1.5 times bigger in your system than in the core rules?</p><p> </p><p>Why do characters of lower levels in a group recieve less EP than higher level ones? In the core rules they received at first the equal amount, then in the revised version even more than the others. Okay, some guys can abuse the 3.5 version through making magic items, getting GPs and through adventuring a lot of extra EPs, which offsets the difference regarding their level, having so a net surplus of GPs, but with your system noone wants to get behind the others because they will fall more and more behind the others - the only solution for this situation is then solo adventuring.</p><p> </p><p>Do you use for the creation of the PDF a LaTeX file? I didn't catch that until now, but it looks so. Please feel free to ignore (in your point of view) too demanding/time-consuming questions: Can I have a copy of the preamble and the code for the gray boxes? Do you use an automatic coloring of the tables or made you that per hand? How did you create the big two horizontal lines in the heading of the pages? Two \hrule-commands? Where did you buy that really fancy font you use for the chapter titles? Yes, I use LaTeX, too. I wrote, for example, my report for an internship and it looked really that good, but some advanced features are still beyound my skills...</p><p> </p><p>Being German, I need to know the answer of the following grammatical question: What is correct: CR-modifier or CR modifier? With or without the hyphen? If I don't ask that, I won't never know. (I had even to look up the meaning of "mate" to assure myself - although I already guessed </p><p>it - of the real meaning <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> .) And for what does the abbreviation NB stand?</p><p> </p><p>I understand that. But how about a small talk about the general design guidelines, so I know at least, what can I expect?</p><p> </p><p>I'm not so much a system designer, but I remember the discussion over, what should the 4th edition should contain. Someone mentioned that he don't like that even the lowly expert has the same fighting abilities as as wizard although the expert doesn't adventure, so he proposed to separate skills, BAB and saves regarding the improvement. I think, for a classless system this is a must-do, but it should be taken farther - hit dice, BAB, saves, skills, feats, class abilities (defense bonus from d20 Modern would be a fine inclusion) and special abilities can be taken each separately, for balancing purposes with point-buy - every level gives x points, every item on the list costs points relative to its benefit (SKReynolds proposed already a point-buy for feats on </p><p>his website).</p><p> </p><p>Now the decision has to be made of the design goal - what is the limit for every category? Should the maximum be, what a single-classed character can reach: Every level one hit die, BAB as a fighter, good saves, maximum ranks like class skills, 18 feats over 20 levels, caster level of 20, 10d6 sneak attack...? This doesn't take following things into account: 1. Through ECLs not every level provides a hit die, boni to BAB and saves and ranks to skills. 2. Prestige classes allow the bypassing of maxima - boni to skill to the equivalent of the level of the prestige class, one PC (the kensai?) allows even the improvement of the BAB! 3. Prestige classes have prerequisites and give more advantages than the core classes.</p><p> </p><p>What could be the solution? Simple allowing the bypassing of the mentioned maximums. Maybe there should be a minimum like having at least receiving every odd levels one hit die (How about getting rid of the d4 as hit die? It is only a legacy.), at least poor saves, at least wizard BAB. This could be a min-maxing paradise but I believe this would dispose the need of prestige classes and some unbalancing factors are so removed, as long there aren't per se unbalancing components like the Hulking Hurler has. Or maybe a maximum of two times the level compared to the original rules?</p><p> </p><p>So, what do you think?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Verequus, post: 1453780, member: 9135"] Hi Upper_Krust! The first question is solved by myself, so no need to answer - but still the second question is open. But some other unclear points came up through the studying: What are the differences between v4 and v5 (except more correct numbers and maybe better examples)? I discovered following ones: Different handling of ability scores (Is that already the final version?), handling of the ECL, only three columns instead four at the CR listings (more clearly than before), different EL calculations (now easier and yet better). I caught also some errors: -Page 3: The ooze traits CR modifier total for intelligent oozes is 2.7, but it should be 2.6. It is correct in the traits table, not in the breakdown. -Page 4: I don't find the Native Subtype, which should offset a little bit of the Outsider-CR penalty. -Page 9, in the paragraph about ECLs you wrote: "For thos epeople who wish to use the Silver Rule" - the second space is one letter too much left. Substituting Core Rules: The Balor example is wrong - 2/3 of 33 are 22, not 21. -On page 15 the last sentence has been cut off. -Page 17, Using Encounter levels: "This latter element allow s DMs" - "allows" with a space, "before requiring a period to rest; recuperate and restock." - a semicolon instead a normal colon. The example with the balor regarding the Opponent Role: "Nemesis versus EL 16-20 Party" - the range must be 17-20, so the next row regarding "Background only" is wrong, too. Experience Points: You mention the Party EL, but you don't say, that the Party EL has to be calculated like every other opponent group. Situational modifiers: "Hazardous Conditions for Party = -2 EL" - shouldn't be that +2 EL, because it makes the encounter more difficult? I hope I could help with that listing - there are some errors taken over from version 4. But after over 1000 downloads from v4 before I saw v5 I believed that someone else told you said already. Overall, v5 is an improvement over v4. Do you include the CR modifiers for the divine abilities etc.? How many digits after the dot count really for a CR modifier? Three? Or four? Or should they never be rounded? If character level = CR is true both in the core rules and in your system, how does it come, that the CRs of the monsters are roughly 1.5 times bigger in your system than in the core rules? Why do characters of lower levels in a group recieve less EP than higher level ones? In the core rules they received at first the equal amount, then in the revised version even more than the others. Okay, some guys can abuse the 3.5 version through making magic items, getting GPs and through adventuring a lot of extra EPs, which offsets the difference regarding their level, having so a net surplus of GPs, but with your system noone wants to get behind the others because they will fall more and more behind the others - the only solution for this situation is then solo adventuring. Do you use for the creation of the PDF a LaTeX file? I didn't catch that until now, but it looks so. Please feel free to ignore (in your point of view) too demanding/time-consuming questions: Can I have a copy of the preamble and the code for the gray boxes? Do you use an automatic coloring of the tables or made you that per hand? How did you create the big two horizontal lines in the heading of the pages? Two \hrule-commands? Where did you buy that really fancy font you use for the chapter titles? Yes, I use LaTeX, too. I wrote, for example, my report for an internship and it looked really that good, but some advanced features are still beyound my skills... Being German, I need to know the answer of the following grammatical question: What is correct: CR-modifier or CR modifier? With or without the hyphen? If I don't ask that, I won't never know. (I had even to look up the meaning of "mate" to assure myself - although I already guessed it - of the real meaning :D .) And for what does the abbreviation NB stand? I understand that. But how about a small talk about the general design guidelines, so I know at least, what can I expect? I'm not so much a system designer, but I remember the discussion over, what should the 4th edition should contain. Someone mentioned that he don't like that even the lowly expert has the same fighting abilities as as wizard although the expert doesn't adventure, so he proposed to separate skills, BAB and saves regarding the improvement. I think, for a classless system this is a must-do, but it should be taken farther - hit dice, BAB, saves, skills, feats, class abilities (defense bonus from d20 Modern would be a fine inclusion) and special abilities can be taken each separately, for balancing purposes with point-buy - every level gives x points, every item on the list costs points relative to its benefit (SKReynolds proposed already a point-buy for feats on his website). Now the decision has to be made of the design goal - what is the limit for every category? Should the maximum be, what a single-classed character can reach: Every level one hit die, BAB as a fighter, good saves, maximum ranks like class skills, 18 feats over 20 levels, caster level of 20, 10d6 sneak attack...? This doesn't take following things into account: 1. Through ECLs not every level provides a hit die, boni to BAB and saves and ranks to skills. 2. Prestige classes allow the bypassing of maxima - boni to skill to the equivalent of the level of the prestige class, one PC (the kensai?) allows even the improvement of the BAB! 3. Prestige classes have prerequisites and give more advantages than the core classes. What could be the solution? Simple allowing the bypassing of the mentioned maximums. Maybe there should be a minimum like having at least receiving every odd levels one hit die (How about getting rid of the d4 as hit die? It is only a legacy.), at least poor saves, at least wizard BAB. This could be a min-maxing paradise but I believe this would dispose the need of prestige classes and some unbalancing factors are so removed, as long there aren't per se unbalancing components like the Hulking Hurler has. Or maybe a maximum of two times the level compared to the original rules? So, what do you think? [/QUOTE]
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