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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Loonook" data-source="post: 5902057" data-attributes="member: 1861">Since we're discussing costs for living, let us go into what is required to live a Common Lifestyle Upkeep.  A Common Lifestyle costs 540 GP/year to maintain per the same Upkeep chart. Common Lifestyle is one that has you living in a nice common inn,  with 2 common and 1 Good meal (stews and fresh bread, for dinner what we would now consider a 'meal' of multiple small courses, meat, carbs (rice, potatoes, other starch), possible veggies, and wine/beer with any of the meals) , common accommodation (sharing a common room with multiple individuals, common wash and latrine), and around 5 GP/mo left for candles, oil, and basic comforts.  This is of course if you are living out on your own; the Common Upkeep could also fit for those who own a small cottage in a nice location, about the rate of a standard one-family 'city living' accommodation.  With the additional bump between Poor and Common (392 GP/year :O) you're looking at some high expenses.  Who can afford a 'common' lifestyle?Our sample family would have to have an income of around 4.4GP/day to afford such a lavish lifestyle if you have 365 days in your calendar.  That amounts to 44 TIMES the value of an unskilled laborer.Our Soldier in the previous example has spent the last 8 years on the Watch, and become quite knowledgeable.  Wanting to leave the role of an enforcer he has begun working on various civic projects, learning about politics, and spent some of his additional money on investing in himself.  He spent the last year off the Watch apprenticing himself out as a hand to a Smith and being an auxiliary member called in on 'bigger issues'.  He now has Profession (Cobbler) trained to 1 rank (2 SP) and has trained in Craft.  At his next level he takes Expert, to show his focus on his new skills.  He takes 2 ranks in Profession, 3 ranks in Craft (Metalworking), and 1 in Knowledge (Local) from his time away from the Guards.Now our Soldier has a useful Craft.  He isn't the best man of his age at the work, but for a soldier he is quite good at his work.  He invests in a set of Masterwork Artisan Tools, knowing that having the fine tools of a master craftsman will assist his endeavors.The Commander, knowing a soldier at the forge may assist his men, employs our Soldier to the forge.  Paying full value he sets up the Soldier under the grizzly veteran Smith and his apprentice at the city's armory.  A fancy Smithy (2000GP) provides +2 to craft checks.  With Aid Another checks the Smith and his Apprentice can assist our Soldier.  He can produce 2 Longswords/week for the Watch under these conditions (13 + 2 (masterwork) +4 (AO) +2=21, 21*15 = 315 SP, 31.5 GP, 15 GP/longsword).  8 longswords/month (80 GP/month after cost of materials), then payment to our apprentice and smith (Smiths run 12GP/mo per Stronghold Builder's Guide, 3 GP/apprentice) you have improved your overall monthly rate to 65 GP.  780 GP/year... Now if you are still in the Auxiliary you're going to have a very nice chunk of change to spend.  Now you can see the way individuals in D&D can raise themselves up while still being broke.  Craft and Profession checks are fantastic things.  If our Soldier had started out as a Smith's Apprentice (Exp 1) he would be producing an even larger amount of money.  Of course some of this cash would be spent on various tools and services, over time investing in your own Smithy, paying apprentices, purchasing and resale of equipment, etc... If you can have a large team of Apprentices assisting you in the process (Aid Another is a wonderful tool) and your specific DM believes in the Quick Craft rules you can make your tools even more quickly, and provide even more income.  Of course a Smith would gain experience slower than our Soldier would see combat.  A Smith could be called to arms every year during his able-bodied period, gaining 1d2 encounters/year from age 16 to 40.  If this were the case the Smith would be around 3rd-4th level by his 40th year (if he survived combat...).  At 4th level your Smith (with Skill Focus: Craft (Weaponsmithing), with five apprentices [10+10+2+2+9] can Quick Craft (if allowed) craft (DC: 25, take ten skill: 33) [33*25] 825 sp worth of martial weapons/week.  That is 22 longswords per month.  190 GP/month for our Smith at ~ age 40.The Smith would be able to own/nearly own his own Fancy Smithy (if he needs to be independent), and probably be making additional money on Journeymen smiths who hawk their wares through him (5-10% gross of anything sold in his shop).  He's making a fine lower class lifestyle, and with grown children out of the home (or working as Smiths themselves on cheaper equipment) he can establish a pretty decent lifestyle for himself.Now back to 'Money offered for creatures is too high!'.  An Ogre tramping about a town is a major drain on the town's economy.  A small town has a max Expert who ranges in level from 3rd to 12th, a commoner of 4-16th level, and a 1-4 lvl aristocrat.  These individuals produce a LOT of trade goods, have fields, collect taxes... And that same small town may have some PC characters available.  However, it isn't a guarantee... And killing your own people can be expensive in goodwill costs.  If the Smith above saves only 10% of his overall income for possible issues, and his fellows do the same... There's plenty of cash available for such sponsorship.  The local adventurers would charge at least 30 GP/level/month, not including spellcasting costs, outfitting, etc.  To retain a 3rd level Fighter and a retinue of 4 3rd level guardsmen with leather armor, longswords, bows and arrows for a minimum month-long engagement we're talking (306 GP wages, 50 for leather, 75 for longswords, 375 gp for longbows, 10 GP for two quivers of arrows/ea, 10 gp for daggers, 15 gp for light wooden shields) comes out to 841 GP.  Of course your small town doesn't HAVE 4 3rd level guardsmen (tops at 1 8th level, 2 4th, 4 2nd level)... Carriage of those warriors from another city, plus additional pay... But that is still below the average value of a CR 3 encounter (900 GP). It's gonna be much cheaper to get adventurers to do it for fool's wages and the pillage.  Of course if your guys come with most of their equipment you're still paying 306 GP plus arrows, and probably be charged by the warriors for use of arms in other ways (shelter, food, etc.) that, over the month, will lead to more issues.Again these numbers are rough for wages, based on charts found in the Stronghold Builder's Guide p. 42, DMG and PHB as listed.So yes, it does seem like a large amount of money at first blush... but the costs of living, costs of equipping, etc. and MUCH higher when you start looking at it from a community level.  As I said adventurers are upper-middle class citizens with no liquid assets.Slainte,-Loonook.</blockquote>

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