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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5557577" data-attributes="member: 78116">Not really. It brings them above OAssassin levels, but not much else as they only can do this limited times (encounter powers and some dailies allow it). Slayers have nowhere near the problems that vampires do and pull ridiculous DPR with trivial amounts of optimization. For one thing, Slayers can take huge die weapons, like d12 mordenkrads, fullblades or the gouge. The slayer is ridiculously accurate: I've been able to get a 80% even chance to hit a monster of the same level trivially and this is without CA. Slayers are naturally one of the best chargers in 4E, with a stance that gives +2 accuracy on charging and +2 speed (this is really the major factor that makes them ridiculously good at this). Charging at +3 to hit all day? With all the delicious delicious charge cheese in 4E? That's not good. That is flat out amazing.Not to mention that slayers have a very effective damage scaling bonus, stances that add extra damage that scale very well (though in fairness, many slayers will just abuse the +2 to hit and speed on charging stance), they can get rain of blows for a strong multiple attack at higher levels and on top of all this, they add dex onto all of their attacks too. Take surprising charge - conveniently enough there is a 2d6 brutal 1 spear AND axe in the game just for that - did I mention expertise that adds +1/+2/+3 damage on that  as well on charging? - for charges that do 4d6 brutal 1 natively (from heroic tier pretty much) and later in epic 6d6 brutal 1 natively. That's your basic charge, doing 3[W] with beyond ridiculous accuracy to boot. You'll notice I've not even mentioned power strike, but by epic that right there is 12d6 brutal 1 on a charge (as power strike will add a flat 3[W]). If we don't assume the gouge is available, you'll still get 5d12 with something like a fullblade - plus is more accurate (as it's +3). So scaling wise, the slayer is flying into epic with huge horrible teeth - the vampire is limping in and is barely able to keep up.Quite frankly, the slayer is nowhere near in the same ballpark as the vampire when you are *that* built for charging. Of course you might argue that charging needs to be looked at in general, because if you are built to use charging in any manner it's just ridiculous how much better you are than someone not built for charging. Then again, the slayer feels like it was made to abuse charging. The slayer isn't known for having problems inflicting ridiculous amounts of damage. I mean I think the slayer is boring, but I'll never criticize its ability to deal damage. The only thing more obscene for pure base every single round effectiveness is the thief. Both of whom with the feat article last month have options for minor action attacks or multiple attacks too.The question of course is, where does the vampire go wrong? This is actually simple to answer:1) The vampire has no native accuracy boosting feature, unlike the Slayer and Rogue (who gain a natural +1 bonus to pretty much everything they want to do). The vampire does get its choice of NADs, but the Thief can turn all of his attacks into targeting reflex and with his ridiculous accuracy as well.2) The vampire uses implement attacks. This means he's restricted to smaller dice, except on a precious few encounter powers and similar. You can't make the same use out of the options like charging that the slayer can (and the slayer frankly, also enjoys +2 accuracy from the charge stance as well).3) The vampires secondary damage mechanics don't scale anywhere near that of essentials strikers. 4) The vampire relies heavily on being able to burn surges for extra damage - hence why durable is really important. More surges = more burning = better encounter nova. Of course the best encounter novas of the vampire are getting into territory of the worst efforts of some of the other strikers - which is why they get so criticized on this (especially towards paragon). Durable solves this though in fairness, but it's one of the other reasons its so important aside from low level survival.5) The vampire, as you mentioned Abdul, doesn't have the options for multiple attacks and minor actions/interrupts that some others do. Now the slayer/thief aren't great at this either, but they make up for it with so much ridiculous front loading that they don't have to care. Slayers and thieves don't approach multiple attacking strikers, but oh boy do they hold their own easily. The vampire does not.My solutions now I've seen enough of Mr. Vampy:1) Give the vampire a much bigger static increase to damage as he levels up. Vampires can't abuse charging. They can't get many multiple attacks and they are entirely locked into a linear route. Giving them a better damage scaling mechanic would work wonders. Blood drinker IMO could go to 2d8/3d8/4d8 in fact (instead of 1d8/2d8/3d8 as it is now). I mean that's not the biggest increase in the world, but it's something at least on top of their charisma (which I think should get a bigger static bonus to help their damage).2) I would like to see them get more ways of burning surges for extra damage in general. Maybe just another power or so where they can spend a surge, to throw on some d10s onto an attack. It would still fit the mechanics of the class and really enforce their desperation to get surges.3) I am unsure if vampires or anything in these essentials books will ever get class feats, but a bunch of class feats to give them more accuracy, or higher damage or something could go such a long way to helping the vampire. Part of the reason slayers/thieves really are not equivalent in problems to the vampire is all that previous support. Surprising charge for example, is plainly ridiculous for a slayer and was published a really long time ago (martial power in fact). Vampires have 0 support in terms of feats, which is partly why they fall so far behind as slayers/thieves have the genius move of being fighters/rogues. They get delicious delicious support, so it's little wonder that slayers and thieves have the options to pull their damage ahead, despite things we'd think of as "problems" with optimizing damage. Again the lack of immediate interrupts, minor action attacks and multiple attacks don't bother the slayer/thief at all. They front load literally everything so much they get away with it. This should be the approach the vampire should take.The vampire could use a lot of support and does in fact really need it at paragon and above. This is about the time that the OAssassin becomes laughably bad as well (coincidence? I think not). I think most of the vampires damage issues could be easily solved, but it's up to wizards to do it with good focused support where it needs it. As we've seen with the Runepriest or Seeker though - it's not a good idea to count on support fixing your class. But in fairness, at least the vampire isn't the binder!</blockquote>

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