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Message: <blockquote data-quote="WalterKovacs" data-source="post: 5557948" data-attributes="member: 63763">A couple things: (a) You still need to get C/A for suprising charge. Sure, there are easy ways to get it, but charging into C/A does make it a little more difficult (you need to be able to move into position if you intend to charge into a flank, or get the enemy alone for cunning stalker). (b) Gouge + Suprising Charge is, like the twin strike + immediate reactions/minor actions, sort of set the DPR standard at ridiculous levels. When basically optimization for a striker is: Can you charge? Ok, then you need 17 Dex, multiclass into fighter or rogue (preferably fighter 13 STR/WIS to get the immediate reaction attack in order to increase the DPR) and take suprising charge with a gouge (unless you need to use a light blade, in which case rapier is fine) ... OR go with two weapons, get twin-strike as an elf, multiclass into something that gives you access to more minor/interupt/etc attacks than your class gives you natively ... That's a bit absurd. And thus, if the striker doesn't use weapons, it really has no hope.  Really, not matter WHAT they give a striker, if it's impement based, they aren't going to get Gouge Charging or multi-attacking DPR. The best they can hope for is going the monk/sorceror direction and getting lots of damage via attacking tons of targets. I don't think the vampire stood a chance, especially when they didn't want it to turn into an axe wielding charger or a whirling dervish.  One of the big questions is what exactly is the 'expected' DPR for strikers and the like? In June they are doing an "official" rules update, and sooner or later we'll see the ranger (with his twin strike, etc) getting some updates as well. It's possible that the Vampire is expected to have DPR that while a bit on the low side, but that the top end DPR will be brought down to be more in line with the 'expectation'. It does seem that with the 1/rnd quarry damage/sneak attack/curse and the "no ability modifier" damage for twin strike that they underestimated the value of multi attacks and off standard attacks (the ranger is one of the best DPR in the game and that has pretty much NOTHING to do with their quarry striker mechanic ...) Heck the ammount of nerfing put onto multi-attacks (especially ones that target the same person on each attack) has been nerfed a lot.</blockquote>

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