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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Droogie" data-source="post: 5777650" data-attributes="member: 1298">I suppose we all have a different idea of what makes D&D feel like D&D. For me its classes, levels, some familiar races, and a 20 sided die. Everything else is negotiable. For me, vancian magic is not what defines D&D, it just happens to be the magic system that it uses, and even when I started playing it back in the 80's I always saw room for improvement. For a game that pulls inspiration from so many sources, the magic system always struck me as overly...esoteric? Don't get me wrong, I understand the system just fine, but in typical early gygaxian fashion, it was not the most elegant game design. I think you can have a system where magic feels special and rare that doesn't use a slot-based system where spell levels mean something different than character levels. I dislike the old-school D&D magic system from a mechanics viewpoint, not really a concept viewpoint.  Agreed. The hobby has stiff competition these days. Continued refinement of the game is necessary to ensure that it is a game that enough people will want to play. Although I really do think you can design a game that isn't a ton of work to prep and still be robust enough for the hardcore. I think D&D succeeded in spite of its magic system (and other weird subsystems) not because of it. It sort of got carried along like eyes on a cave fish.  D&D is popular mostly because it is the biggest brand name in tabletop RPGs, and serves as the gateway to the hobby for most.  However, if WotC really wants the next edition to please everyone, I have to concede that they have to have something "vance-like" in there, either as an optional system or a specific class that uses magic in that vancian way. At any rate, I do not envy anyone that works at WoTC right now.</blockquote>

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