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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 5784249" data-attributes="member: 54877">No, I'm not missing the assertion. I'm disagreeing with it on practical and wide-spread audience pleasing grounds. Namely, that if you try to model the extremes with wizard and fighter specifically (i.e. fairly generic, iconic, presumably popular, early classes), then it won't work. Sure, if they embed your preferences in the game, it will work for you. And likewise, with different preferences, more or less for me and pemerton too. (We don't exactly share preferences, either. So that is two different sets.)  I'm equally sure there are small but important preference differences from every person participating in this topic. Heck, my preferences change from game to game, as I like to model the game we are playing. That's why I like Hero a lot too. It's great for when you want something specific. But there is a middle ground between Hero and, say, the 1st ed. AD&D locked-in preferences. You know full well--better than most--that Hero and GURPS only works for some groups when you carefully set thresholds for abilities, by campaign. Heck, 4th ed. Hero explicitly discusses it, and if I remember correctly in 6th, there is even some additional mechanical support. Also, again, I'm asserting the principles that need to be followed. If you want to make a case for the things called "wizard" and "fighter" being built-in outliers, then I can see that, too. You'll need more starting classes than my way (speaking of bloat of options), but I'll readily grant that has its own advantages that my way doesn't. In that case, then I still assert the principles for some set of relatively general adventuring classes which need to be present--i.e. some wizard-type class and fighter-type class that meets the parameters that I have discussed--without extraneous stuff tightly bound to it, such as bardic music or ranger wilderness skills. That too has advantages and disadvantages, but any of those can be overcome depending upon how the rest of the system is put together. These principles would also need to be applied to skills, such as sneaking. I used the combat abilities between wizard and fighter as a good example.</blockquote>

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