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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Felon" data-source="post: 1572888" data-attributes="member: 8158">The barbarian's about being strong enough to dominate nature, the ranger's about understanding and becoming a part of the wild. It's more apt to say a PHB ranger gives up brute strength & stamina for skills and an understanding of nature magic. I suspect it takes longer than one morning. But over time (and levels), the PHB ranger becomes more attuned to nature and learns to tap into natural forces in a limited way. At least in D&D they do, and in that context it works because it seems like magic is a highly-accessible force. Moreover, it seems pretty self-evident that to be a full-blown character class that can pull its weight with a party through 20 levels and beyond, a ranger has to be about more than just mundane hunting and foraging skills.The fighter and barbarian classes are good for fighting certain types of foes, and poor at figthing others. The ranger needs its own niche where it kicks butt, and just co-opting fast movement, sneak attack dice, bonus fighter feats, or other class features that are already spoken for just isn't going to make that happen. If there's a way to make an effective ranger without magic, I'm all for it. But I'm not hearing that, rather I'm hearing people so intent on removing magic from the class that they let that goal override everything else that's an important class-design consideration. Giving the class druid magic makes it markedly from the barbarian or fighter or paladin or rogue, and that's the whole point.Scrounging for herbs works at low levels, but inevitably it gets eclipsed by what other classes are capable of. Ultimately, there comes a point where foraging for berries just isn't going to cut it next to someone who can cast heal. Not that I think that the ranger's meager spellcasting ability holds up well (I've said as much) but stripping that and having his portfolio solely confined to mundane skills isn't progress.</blockquote>

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