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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 5749057" data-attributes="member: 95493">Which, as a previous post showed, by 20th level that consists of 30 gp by 20th level, a drop in the bucket.Mostly because wizards aren't required to spend money to get vastly better at doing what they're doing, fighters are.Exotic Weapon Proficiency.Plus, I haven't said (at any time) they have to spend money to learn ALL their spells. They'd get (at least) 1 per 2 levels. More at first, more if they specialize. Based on suggestions from here, I have considered giving them 1 for 1 for free.Think on low level or trainee wizards from stories. They shouldn't be much more than commoners with high int. Similarly, fighters aren't as good at killing things at low levels, better than wizards but certainly not veteran soldiers or legionnaires. That's an option I guess.What about situations where they burn through the whole dungeon because of foresight and knowledge of the creatures inside without having to leave and reinforce? More accurately, what about situations where the wizard is able to keep the party in the dungeon without having the opportunity of midnight attacks? There are several spells which stop this problem.No, it doesn't sound like the problem I've been having. My issue isn't with them nuking the world. Granted, it is a concern but it is not my root problem. My problem has to do with the choices or options that the wizard has. I have problems when they use 3 divination spells, teleport in, nuke everything, teleport out. I don't appreciate when the wizard single-handed decimates an army but my issue is when they act as a single person strike team. Reducing the number of spells they know and then forcing them to buy scrolls to learn said spells means they'll think twice before acquiring spells which make them god-awfully strong.My problem is when magic is used as a front line option. It was heavily discussed in the detect magic vs illusions thread that a simple cantrip can find most things that are needed to be hiding. Spell durations are often very long for utility spells. While they may only prepare 1 or 2 a day, those spells can be more effective than a fighter or rogue's natural abilities. A knock spell, or item of knock, reduces the need for a rogue's ability to unlock doors. Invisibility and flight means a wizard can avoid being found and killed. Greater invisibility vastly outweighs the benefits from a stealth check.Gandalf didn't go around throwing spells ALL THE TIME. He was also a much higher level than any of the people in the fellowship. I mean he was an "angel".I've heard tales from editions prior to 3rd in which wizards had a MUCH harder time locating, learning and using spells. None of which significantly applies in 3rd. As 3rd is the only edition I am familiar, I'll stick to it for my examples. As Pathfinder is the base system I'm proposing the rule, I find points about 1e and OD&D to be moot.When I was saying ALWAYS better, I meant since 3rd which is where my  knowledge source is based. I mean they ALWAYS kick butt vs other  classes. Not that they have ALWAYS done it.That wizard can't prepare 3 sleeps? If (as you suggest) a fighter has a roughyl 50/50 chance of shrugging it off what is to stop the wizard from casting it again? At level 1, the fighter probably isn't doing much (per round) against the wizard either. That drops the chances over 3 rounds from 1/2 to 1/6 of not falling asleep? But yes, I'm babbling.It is this versatility I take exception to.Whereas a fighter has had to spend money on his main weapon, backup weapon, armor, shield and utility equipment to play with, a wizard has... just his spells.IF and I stress, IF I said that the wizard had to take an illusion spell over a conjuration spell would this be a little bit true. I don't specify which spells they can take, nor do I pick their school.Yes but the wizard doesn't have to currently. He can very simply get away with spending no money on his equipment, or at least not having to spend money on his base mechanic - like a fighter or a rogue must.Non-casters don't benefit from rings of protection, cloaks of resistance, belts of strength (and dex and con), amulets of natural armor, bracers of armor/actual armor, [insert misc. wondrous item here], etc.? I guess I've been making my characters wrong.The fighter has to pay for his +4 mithril full-plate and his +5 ghost touch keen holy greatsword in addition to the stuff above. And .. see the next 2 quotes... And a fighter isn't his weapons, a rogue isn't his lockpicks. They need to invest in such things.Leaving him more spells left over. Increasing the number of save or suck(or save or die), or blasting, or teleport, or divination, or whatever he wants. Once again, my issue is the vast array of options each of which turning a wizard from a simple commoner into a master-whatever he wants to be at that time.</blockquote>

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