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*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Vengeful Parry trick?
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<blockquote data-quote="DreamChaser" data-source="post: 5055365" data-attributes="member: 1190"><p>This response is comparing apples to oranges. The question I raised is not whether the AND exists but rather a question of different wording: This power is not worded the same way as covering attack.</p><p></p><p>It says the following:</p><p></p><p> Hit: 2[W] + Wisdom modifier damage. You shift 1 square and then slide the target 2 squares to a square adjacent to you.</p><p></p><p>Two key differences from covering attack. First, the secondary effect is a separate sentence from the damage. Second, the two parts of the secondary effect are connected by AND THEN instead of AND.</p><p></p><p>There is no syntactic (sentence structure) reason for "THEN" because the sentence would still be grammatically correct without it. It's inclusion therefore could be (and is likely) lexical (intended to change the meaning of the sentence). And then differs from and in that it creates a clear sense of order and (possibly) implied causality (If / then).</p><p></p><p>We know that forced movement is optional unless the power says "must". That is not under debate AND if the word "THEN" were not present in the power description, I would agree that it applies. However, AND THEN leads my to infer that the two movements are together an effect:</p><p></p><p>IF you shift THEN you slide the target adjacent.</p><p></p><p>IF (by use of the not forced to shift rule) you do not shift THEN you do not slide the enemy.</p><p></p><p>Take as a mental exercise the question of whether you would permit a player to use the second half of the movement without the first:</p><p></p><p>An avenger with a special ability that allows them to increase the reach of a power by 1 is attacked by a creature with reach. The character and the creature are not adjacent when the attack is made.</p><p></p><p>Would you permit the avenger to move the enemy but not shift himself?</p><p></p><p>You might. That is fine. You are opting for the AND THEN in the sentence to be meaningless and no different from the AND used in others.</p><p></p><p>If you don't, the it stands to reason that the two movements are in fact a linked action...an IF THEN statement.</p><p></p><p>I interpret the THEN as having meaning and implied causation. I do not believe that this is a house rule, either.</p><p></p><p></p><p>DC</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DreamChaser, post: 5055365, member: 1190"] This response is comparing apples to oranges. The question I raised is not whether the AND exists but rather a question of different wording: This power is not worded the same way as covering attack. It says the following: Hit: 2[W] + Wisdom modifier damage. You shift 1 square and then slide the target 2 squares to a square adjacent to you. Two key differences from covering attack. First, the secondary effect is a separate sentence from the damage. Second, the two parts of the secondary effect are connected by AND THEN instead of AND. There is no syntactic (sentence structure) reason for "THEN" because the sentence would still be grammatically correct without it. It's inclusion therefore could be (and is likely) lexical (intended to change the meaning of the sentence). And then differs from and in that it creates a clear sense of order and (possibly) implied causality (If / then). We know that forced movement is optional unless the power says "must". That is not under debate AND if the word "THEN" were not present in the power description, I would agree that it applies. However, AND THEN leads my to infer that the two movements are together an effect: IF you shift THEN you slide the target adjacent. IF (by use of the not forced to shift rule) you do not shift THEN you do not slide the enemy. Take as a mental exercise the question of whether you would permit a player to use the second half of the movement without the first: An avenger with a special ability that allows them to increase the reach of a power by 1 is attacked by a creature with reach. The character and the creature are not adjacent when the attack is made. Would you permit the avenger to move the enemy but not shift himself? You might. That is fine. You are opting for the AND THEN in the sentence to be meaningless and no different from the AND used in others. If you don't, the it stands to reason that the two movements are in fact a linked action...an IF THEN statement. I interpret the THEN as having meaning and implied causation. I do not believe that this is a house rule, either. DC [/QUOTE]
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