RangerWickett
Legend
Pardon my vent. But seriously, stop making monsters that certain classes are completely unable to affect.
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Pathfinder 1E Venting my rage at all the people working on 3rd/PF who continued to make monsters that are immune to mind-affecting effects.
- Thread starter RangerWickett
- Start date
Justice and Rule
Hero
Ah hell, I missed it.
Art Waring
halozix.com
Surely there are a few monsters that should have some kind of resistance or immunity to min-affecting abilities, or else every monster and NPC can be jedi mind-tricked.
Having Jabba be immune to mind tricks is actually a useful storytelling tool.
Having Jabba be immune to mind tricks is actually a useful storytelling tool.
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
Eh, if there's an immunity to something somewhere, there's usually a way around it. Frustrated by undead being immune to mind-affecting spells? Take Threnodic Spell. If the issue is the same thing but for plant creatures, take Verdant Spell. Oozes and vermin? Coaxing Spell. Constructs? A bit harder, but not impossible: level-dip into sorcerer so you can use the Impossible bloodline's arcana.
Problems like these tend to exist in order to be worked around.
Problems like these tend to exist in order to be worked around.
RangerWickett
Legend
It's Strange Aeons, a PF adventure path all about freaky psychic stuff. So I played a psychic, and I made sure to take the ability that lets me use mind-affecting powers on undead, since I didn't want to be useless against mindless foes. Well, darn.Well it’s not whole classes, it’s just particular builds that focus on kind affecting.
If you want to be an enchanter in an undead heavy campaign then you’re gonna get frustrated
I've got magic missile as a back-up, and a few scrolls I can try to cast with energy attacks from other classes, but now I'm 10th level, with access to 5th level spells, and when we went up against a pack of hounds of tindalos, I was basically watching impotently as the rest of the party was blendered.
It was, I suppose, a convincingly horrifying encounter. Who doesn't love hasted invisible creatures that lie in wait for a PC to move up to them, then full attack them into unconsciousness (between the attacks and the gaze attack from the whole pack), and then swift action teleport away?
I'm still salty about it a day later.
TheSword
Legend
Okay… you got me.
That should have been an awesome option in that campaign that’s really fitting.
Yeah you got doinked, but good.
I don’t even have a suggestion for how to deal with it - other than maybe speak to the DM, say you feel like a spare wheel and ask for a respec.
dmccoy1693
Adventurer
Anyone I know?
RangerWickett
Legend
Hound of Tindalos. I'm a psychic.
Attachments
glass
(he, him)
What does that have to do with the price of fish? The OP's rant was not about things being immune to magical or non-magical effects, it was about immunity to mind-affecting effects (which is completely orthogonal to whether something is magical or not).
Anyway yes, I think 3.P gives out immunities way too freely, and mind-affecting effects is one of the worse examples (although by no means the only one). So I agree with the OP wholeheartedly.
RuinousPowers
Hero
Is it usual for invisible creatures to use a gaze attack? Wouldn't the party just not see them, and be unaffected?
thullgrim
Adventurer
I’d rule the attack works but breaks invis.
Celebrim
Legend
I think the problem is that mind effecting spell are generally far more effective than say just power word kill.
Dominate monster might be the most powerful spell in the game, or it would be if the only thing holding it back was just little things like Spell Resistance and Savings Throws. Charm Monster is only slightly less powerful.
That said, I agree absolute immunities are given out too freely. There are a lot of variations that you could do that would have more interplay, like, "Whenever this creature would be charmed or dominated, it is stunned for 1d4 rounds instead." or "Increase this creatures SR by 20 versus mind effecting spells. If the creature does not have SR, it has SR 20 with respect ot mind effecting spells." or in the Hound's case, "For each round a caster dominates the creature they must make a DC 18 Will save or be subject to the effects of Other Worldly Mind". There also probably doesn't need to be full immunity to mind effecting spells, as I have no problem believing you could psychic blast a Hound of Tindalos or whatever, just immunity to charm/dominate.
Dominate monster might be the most powerful spell in the game, or it would be if the only thing holding it back was just little things like Spell Resistance and Savings Throws. Charm Monster is only slightly less powerful.
That said, I agree absolute immunities are given out too freely. There are a lot of variations that you could do that would have more interplay, like, "Whenever this creature would be charmed or dominated, it is stunned for 1d4 rounds instead." or "Increase this creatures SR by 20 versus mind effecting spells. If the creature does not have SR, it has SR 20 with respect ot mind effecting spells." or in the Hound's case, "For each round a caster dominates the creature they must make a DC 18 Will save or be subject to the effects of Other Worldly Mind". There also probably doesn't need to be full immunity to mind effecting spells, as I have no problem believing you could psychic blast a Hound of Tindalos or whatever, just immunity to charm/dominate.
RangerWickett
Legend
It sneaks up invisible, attacks to become visible, and then teleports so its within 30 feet but not close enough for us to full attack back. We start our turn and make multiple saves and take a fair bit of damage, and the person who was full attacked likely drops.
RangerWickett
Legend
Yeah, the game design of mind control is usually really simplistic and un-fun.
Stuff like "murderous command" is neat, limited, and situational.
But "you do exactly what I say" is boring, as is any effect that can take you out of the encounter with a single bad roll, with no chance to do counter-play. I've been fiddling with mental combat game mechanics to give people a chance to wrestle free from mind control, but it requires retooling pretty much every single Will save effect.
PF2, I know, makes stuff like dominate grant a save every round to break free. That still feels a bit meh, since you don't have agency in how you fight back; you just roll to resist. I have in mind some more options.
Art Waring
halozix.com
I would be very interested to see what you have in mind, because I agree that mental effects could do with some expansion.
dmccoy1693
Adventurer
I kept looking at the screenshot, thinking, "I've seen that layout before." Then I realized it was d20pfsrd. So I went there to see who published it. Paizo. So I'm like, "That explains it."
Might I recommend Bestiaries by Pathfinder Compatible publishers?
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