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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Steinhauser" data-source="post: 5023069" data-attributes="member: 86705">I never quite understood the divide between vermin and animals, and why spells and effects that work on animals don't work on vermin.Vermin are animals, after all. Monstrous vermin are just dire animals. There's no clear-cut evolutionary schism between the two. For example, cephalopods (octopus, squid) are animals in the game. Would other mollusks be animals too? I seem to remember a snail being designated vermin somewhere. Somewhere during the transition from gastropod to cephalopod it went from vermin to animal - why, and when did it happen?Fish are animals, worms vermin. What about the basal proto-fish (Pikaia, etc.) of the Cambrian?"Vermin have no Intelligence score." Essentially, they're robots that work on instinct, right? However, I think their mental capacities are being underestimated - they can still feel fear, compulsions, etc. An ant's pheromones are a mind-influencing effect.Vermin aren't trainable at all, but neither are most fish, reptiles, and amphibians. I see no reason why vermin can't be animal companions, or wild shape choices for that matter. Handle Animal should work on vermin, if not to train them, to at least give the handler some degree of control over them (using pressure points, pheromones, bait (a fly on a fishing pole), etc.).Ride should work in a similar fashion. (Through selective breeding, I for one believe it would be possible to produce a docile riding spider with even basal trainability.)Therefore, I felt the vermin type should be revised as a subtype. Current vermin type are changed to animal (vermin). This requires very little bookkeeping - all that changes are Reflex saves to good (which vermin should, by all means, be good at) and skills (they get 3+HD skill points each, which could easily be all spent on Climb for the vast majority).Vermin SubtypeAnimals with the vermin subtype include insects, arachnids, other arthropods, worms, and similar invertebrates.They possess the following traits:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Intelligence score of 1. Immunity to charms and morale effects (though still subject to fear).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Subject to spells and effects that specifically target vermin.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">+5 to the DC of all Handle Animal, Ride, and Wild Empathy checks made to influence vermin.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tremorsense out to 60 ft. (This replaces Darkvision and is an ability most poor-sighted vermin actually have)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Does not acquire feats.</li> </ul></blockquote>

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