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[Very Long Indeed] Reconciling Combat as War and Combat as Sports in 5ed
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 5817580" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>First of all, this whole CaW/CaS thing still just looks to me like rationalizing subjective preferences. Sure, some people like one ed over another. That liking doens't have to have a 'reason.' But, whatever... there's a few things worth talking about, here...</p><p></p><p>Attrition/Encounter Balance: The way D&D has always been set up, from 0D&D through Essentials, assumes the party will be worn down over a series of encounters to be challenged. Incidentally, that means D&D has /never/ (any ed) had consistent encounter balance. So 'encounter balance' isn't something we have to worry about losing, here. It's something we can reject trying to finally achieve (not impossible, just toss dailies), though, I suppose. Consider it rejected for purposes of this discussion. At least, encounter balance relative to the party (the only kind that /really/ counts). But, the DM has gotten better tools (3e CR, 4e encounter building) to gauge how challenging encounters are relative to eachother or relative to a fresh party, and there's no need for 5e to throw those away.</p><p></p><p>Extended Rest: Week long extended rests in places of safety only? Well, that would change the pacing of some campiagns. It still doesn't address the basic issues that daily resources raise, it just upps the ante a bit. Instead of the 15 min work day, you have the 15 min work week (what a union!). It'd be easier to bring time-pressure to bear, of course, but by the same token, harder to have a faster pacing. I'd suggest making the 'Extended' rest benefits more story-based, with the DM designating a milestone (not the 4e jargon milestone) or plot point, that when reached, enables the benefit. Depending on play style, he can share that with the group or not. I'd just suggest throwing out dailies, but we know how likely that is. Anything short of absolute DM fiat will result in some adventures having many more (or less) encounters. Even with absolute DM fiat, the average encounters/adventure the game is balanced (see below) around is going to constrain adventure design (...and 3 and 4 and boss fight), and possibly lead to recognizable patterns the (1 and 2 and...) party can exploit when managing resources (which may even be part of the point, I guess).</p><p></p><p>Encounter Balance: Never had it, never will (6e?). But, try to hold onto the encounter-construction tools 3e introduced and 4e refined. </p><p></p><p>Class Balance: The thorniest problem. Class balance was always a goal of D&D, but one rarely attained - through some levels, between some classes, on some days, maybe there's some balance. Sure, 4e did pretty well, but it did it by giving all classes the same access to resources, and that's clearly unacceptable (not D&D). With some classes having 'daily' (or weekly or adventure-ly) resources and others not, the only way to make class balance /possible/ is to dictate a number of encounters per day/week/adventure. That unduly constrains the DM. And it's only a necessary condition, not sufficient, class balance can still be pretty screwed up, pretty easily, even if you lock the game into some sort of 5-encounter formula. So, in the name of 'bringing everyone together,' 'retaining the soul of D&D' and (most ironically) 'supporting as many styles as possible,' do we give up on class balance, or try to enforce it enforce by narrowing the game down to /one/ manditory pacing formula? Even if WotC tries the latter, DMs will just ignore it and players circumvent it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 5817580, member: 996"] First of all, this whole CaW/CaS thing still just looks to me like rationalizing subjective preferences. Sure, some people like one ed over another. That liking doens't have to have a 'reason.' But, whatever... there's a few things worth talking about, here... Attrition/Encounter Balance: The way D&D has always been set up, from 0D&D through Essentials, assumes the party will be worn down over a series of encounters to be challenged. Incidentally, that means D&D has /never/ (any ed) had consistent encounter balance. So 'encounter balance' isn't something we have to worry about losing, here. It's something we can reject trying to finally achieve (not impossible, just toss dailies), though, I suppose. Consider it rejected for purposes of this discussion. At least, encounter balance relative to the party (the only kind that /really/ counts). But, the DM has gotten better tools (3e CR, 4e encounter building) to gauge how challenging encounters are relative to eachother or relative to a fresh party, and there's no need for 5e to throw those away. Extended Rest: Week long extended rests in places of safety only? Well, that would change the pacing of some campiagns. It still doesn't address the basic issues that daily resources raise, it just upps the ante a bit. Instead of the 15 min work day, you have the 15 min work week (what a union!). It'd be easier to bring time-pressure to bear, of course, but by the same token, harder to have a faster pacing. I'd suggest making the 'Extended' rest benefits more story-based, with the DM designating a milestone (not the 4e jargon milestone) or plot point, that when reached, enables the benefit. Depending on play style, he can share that with the group or not. I'd just suggest throwing out dailies, but we know how likely that is. Anything short of absolute DM fiat will result in some adventures having many more (or less) encounters. Even with absolute DM fiat, the average encounters/adventure the game is balanced (see below) around is going to constrain adventure design (...and 3 and 4 and boss fight), and possibly lead to recognizable patterns the (1 and 2 and...) party can exploit when managing resources (which may even be part of the point, I guess). Encounter Balance: Never had it, never will (6e?). But, try to hold onto the encounter-construction tools 3e introduced and 4e refined. Class Balance: The thorniest problem. Class balance was always a goal of D&D, but one rarely attained - through some levels, between some classes, on some days, maybe there's some balance. Sure, 4e did pretty well, but it did it by giving all classes the same access to resources, and that's clearly unacceptable (not D&D). With some classes having 'daily' (or weekly or adventure-ly) resources and others not, the only way to make class balance /possible/ is to dictate a number of encounters per day/week/adventure. That unduly constrains the DM. And it's only a necessary condition, not sufficient, class balance can still be pretty screwed up, pretty easily, even if you lock the game into some sort of 5-encounter formula. So, in the name of 'bringing everyone together,' 'retaining the soul of D&D' and (most ironically) 'supporting as many styles as possible,' do we give up on class balance, or try to enforce it enforce by narrowing the game down to /one/ manditory pacing formula? Even if WotC tries the latter, DMs will just ignore it and players circumvent it. [/QUOTE]
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[Very Long Indeed] Reconciling Combat as War and Combat as Sports in 5ed
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