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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aenghus" data-source="post: 5843164" data-attributes="member: 2656">There are some consequences to winning or losing a fight that also end the campaign, and I'm not talking about the ultimate BBEG encounter here.If too many PCs die, the campaign may lose interest in continuing the campaign. If too many PCs get crippled or level-drained or all their magic items are lost, they may lose interest in the campaign or no longer be a match for their enemies in the campaign - in earlier editions ability was often so tied to magic items that losing them without replacement meant that appropriate foes now become overwhelming, and the party has too many high level enemies for survival to be realistic.There is also the D&D prisoner dilemma. Many campaigns handwave what happens to prisoners, to avoid the messy business of deciding what to do w ith them - executing them is pretty cold-blooded, bringing them along is generally impractical and letting them go often doesn't make sense. So most referees avoid the whole issue by assuming the opponents all die or flee when the party is out in the middle of nowhere.But what the party does with prisoners has a real bearing on their attitude to the possibility of surrender. If they torture and execute prisoners without a qualm, they are unlikely to surrender. If the party are good guys fighting double dyed black hat villians, they are unlikely to surrender, though they may be coerced into doing so by threats to others. Surrender is more likely in greyer campaigns where everyone is just a little bit dirty , chanign sides is a real option and  negotiation is always possible.So I find the best defeats in a RPG context revolve around external plot points the players value - friendly NPCs, property, Maguffins, trade, treaties, wars etc . The point having something to lose that doesn't impact on the players and PCs ability to effectively continue the campaign.Obviously, some groups want death and destruction rained down upon them (and intend to reply in kind), and will cheerfully start a new party when the previous one is TPKed. There are other groups that won't bounce back from a TPK, or even serious casualties. This is simply a matter of taste.It's important to know the players involved, and not push them to their breaking points, whatever they may be. And accusations of puny players are not relevant, if a certain referee style blows up the game, it's not the right game style for that group.</blockquote>

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