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Victories and No Defeats in D&D
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<blockquote data-quote="Radiating Gnome" data-source="post: 5843499" data-attributes="member: 150"><p>TerraDave, that sort of Robert McKee-esque structure for story is a good framework to keep in mind, but even McKee doesn't suggest that all of those wins and losses are on the same scale all the time. He also talks about the same sort of Win/lose or +/- within scenes -- line by line dialog going +/-/+/- and so on. And he points out that those wins and losses can and should be on different axies in the story -- so, you may win by killing the enemy king, but you lose because to do so you had to break an oath and that broken oath will have other consequences for you. </p><p></p><p>McKee is really talking about keeping energy and power moving by always making sure that the narrative is moving, that things are always changing, etc. Too many losses, and the story is punishing. To many wins, and it's dull. </p><p></p><p>To apply that to an RPG, you need to think about establishing more than one axis on which to define +/-. So, your PCs may win every single battle against the orc brigands they face, but there are other things going on in the story that supply the "-" between those encounters. Something like this:</p><p></p><p>-The PCs are pursuing a band of Orc Brigands trying to rescue a merchant's daughter</p><p>-They find the location where the girl's carriage was attacked, and pick up the trail (+)</p><p>-They follow the trail into the woods and find strips of her garments in the underbrush, some stained with blood (-)</p><p>-They encounter a rear-guard of orcs and defeat them (+)</p><p>-The orcs they killed each had a lock of the girl's hair on a string of trophies around her neck (-)</p><p>-The Pcs follow the trail to the orc hideout (+)</p><p>-They can hear her screams coming from deep in the cave (-)</p><p>-They attack the Orcs outside the cave and defeat them (+)</p><p>-The orcs did raise an alarm and now the orcs inside know someone is coming (-)</p><p>-The PCs charge in and defeat the orcs (+)</p><p>-They find the girl, badly beaten and abused (-)</p><p>-They return her to her father (+)</p><p></p><p>Notice how every time the PCs do something they succeed, and yet the story flows back and forth between + and - ? It's a little strained, maybe -- and in a narrative you can get a bit more variety out of things because it's easier for the story to absorb a moment when the protagonist does not succeed. </p><p></p><p>But still, the give and take here makes the story a LOT more interesting, even though, because of the nature of the game we're using to tell this story, the PCs always (or nearly always) succeed when they attempt something. </p><p></p><p>-rg</p><p></p><p>(If you're not familiar with Robert McKee, he's a screenwriting teacher -- and his book "[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Story-Substance-Structure-Principles-Screenwriting/dp/0060391685/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331148892&sr=8-1"]Story[/ame]" is a great exploration of how stories are constructed).</p><p></p><p>(EDIT: TerraDave, after hitting submit and rereading your post and then mine I see that you did mention "you can get fancy, and talk about which wins and losses need to be bigger or smaller..." and I may have mis-represented what you said. Sorry about that, didn't mean to offend. I think, though that it's vital to make those distinctions -- not "fancy", but necessary.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Radiating Gnome, post: 5843499, member: 150"] TerraDave, that sort of Robert McKee-esque structure for story is a good framework to keep in mind, but even McKee doesn't suggest that all of those wins and losses are on the same scale all the time. He also talks about the same sort of Win/lose or +/- within scenes -- line by line dialog going +/-/+/- and so on. And he points out that those wins and losses can and should be on different axies in the story -- so, you may win by killing the enemy king, but you lose because to do so you had to break an oath and that broken oath will have other consequences for you. McKee is really talking about keeping energy and power moving by always making sure that the narrative is moving, that things are always changing, etc. Too many losses, and the story is punishing. To many wins, and it's dull. To apply that to an RPG, you need to think about establishing more than one axis on which to define +/-. So, your PCs may win every single battle against the orc brigands they face, but there are other things going on in the story that supply the "-" between those encounters. Something like this: -The PCs are pursuing a band of Orc Brigands trying to rescue a merchant's daughter -They find the location where the girl's carriage was attacked, and pick up the trail (+) -They follow the trail into the woods and find strips of her garments in the underbrush, some stained with blood (-) -They encounter a rear-guard of orcs and defeat them (+) -The orcs they killed each had a lock of the girl's hair on a string of trophies around her neck (-) -The Pcs follow the trail to the orc hideout (+) -They can hear her screams coming from deep in the cave (-) -They attack the Orcs outside the cave and defeat them (+) -The orcs did raise an alarm and now the orcs inside know someone is coming (-) -The PCs charge in and defeat the orcs (+) -They find the girl, badly beaten and abused (-) -They return her to her father (+) Notice how every time the PCs do something they succeed, and yet the story flows back and forth between + and - ? It's a little strained, maybe -- and in a narrative you can get a bit more variety out of things because it's easier for the story to absorb a moment when the protagonist does not succeed. But still, the give and take here makes the story a LOT more interesting, even though, because of the nature of the game we're using to tell this story, the PCs always (or nearly always) succeed when they attempt something. -rg (If you're not familiar with Robert McKee, he's a screenwriting teacher -- and his book "[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Story-Substance-Structure-Principles-Screenwriting/dp/0060391685/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331148892&sr=8-1"]Story[/ame]" is a great exploration of how stories are constructed). (EDIT: TerraDave, after hitting submit and rereading your post and then mine I see that you did mention "you can get fancy, and talk about which wins and losses need to be bigger or smaller..." and I may have mis-represented what you said. Sorry about that, didn't mean to offend. I think, though that it's vital to make those distinctions -- not "fancy", but necessary.) [/QUOTE]
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