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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dias Ex Machina" data-source="post: 5163888" data-attributes="member: 58907">Well, you don't know the specifics of our conversation regarding Borlaug so let's not go there.  I have done the research as well and find his ideas still equally valid today.  Either way, I will not get into that discussion here.Additionally, I also feel we've gotten off track.  You are preaching to the converted.  Games like Flower have proven the media can present an artistic vision.  What I am arguing is that Penny Arcade failed to offer a real argument to best Roger and instead went on a character attack, citing his age and obsolete views as example.  That made the case against Roger worse, not better.  They sank below the Santiago instead of building upon it.  If Roger is on the wrong side of history and if many people are, like you and I (even if they mean well), than PA could also be considered on the wrong side of history as well.  There is no pattern to a media in its evolution to having the capacity of being art.  It has never followed that simple flow chart.  It only applies to comics and movies (and now to games).  ((Note...I do understand, you are also making a joke))  I won't believe for a second that storytelling followed such simply lines.  We developed language; the first fiction followed quickly after.  I would also insist that visible art also evolved into an imaginative form skipping most of the steps you mention.  I feel, for example, that pen & paper role playing games will never be considered art.  It was never given a chance and most likely never will.  Video Games are in this debate only because they followed a model already covered by comic books and movies.  When the first sculpture was carved, I cannot think for one second that it was disregarded as not being art.  It might have had purpose (religious obviously), but it was also artistic and was considered art by the people who saw it.  What bothers me is that so few people criticizing Roger seem to have actually read his blog.  Obviously, you have, which is why I am still here.  I don't need to defend Roger's point.  I don't need to defend him against PA really as PA brought nothing to the table.  Santiago and Ebert had respect for each other.  Ebert complimented her ("I urge you to watch her talk, which is embedded below. It's only 15 minutes long, and she makes the time pass quickly.")  I don't need to defend his position on art because his points are concise and better worded than I ever could attempt.  Whenever an argument is cited, I could just cut and paste.  Because people define art in different ways (as Ebert also directly points out), you only need to endorse one to prove yourself right.  Just disregard the other definitions.  We can bounce about this until the end of the Mayan Calendar (heh); it's not going to change these individual definitions.   So besides that fact, that I AGREE that Video Games can be artistic, and comparing them to the evolution of comics and movies is actually acceptable, it does not change the fact that Penny Arcade's personal attack on Roger for having an adverse opinion to their own did not help the case to prove Roger was wrong.  If it did, I wouldn't be defending him so much.  If they played it civil in their blog and then made fun of him in their comic, I would never have started this thread.  It was the personal attack in their blog I found so cross, not necessarily the message being sent.On a side note, I think the best way to prove to Roger that games can be art is to modify Flower so that when you complete the game, the final task resets it, forcing you to play through the entire game again, and the last mission actually removes the flowers from the doorsill, forcing to rebuild until the process repeats again, into infinity...  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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