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Message: <blockquote data-quote="toucanbuzz" data-source="post: 7465105" data-attributes="member: 19270">Seeking constructive criticism on a Vitality system to replace the Death Save rules, allowing the player a chance to fix his own emergency when on death's door. Credit to <a href="http://theangrygm.com/fighting-spirit/" target="_blank">AngryDM's blog </a>and (sorta) the Unearthed Arcana article from 2015 that got this conversation started ages ago.The Issues1. Hit Points make no sense. In D&D, a fighter can withstand a Meteor Swarm, dragon's claws, and a fall off a 50' cliff only to be taken out by a goblin's dagger. We abstractly say sometimes hit points represent actual damage and sometimes they don't. Yet, stab Conan the Barbarian in the gut with a sword and an elderly librarian with the same sword and they're both going to die, no matter how experienced they are.2. Death Saves don't make sense. They're meant to be simple, as in I'm unconscious and the goblin stabs me in the heart with his dagger (critical hit, 2 out of 3 death save failures) and I'm still alive. They also diminish player ingenuity by making healing your only solution to a life-and-death situation. In prior editions, there was window of 0 to -10 where a player hangs onto death, and in 3rd edition, some dramatic options were given to players facing that window between living and dying: Staggered status (partial actions at 0hp) and Diehard feat (fight on from 0 to -10). We saw a budding idea that players should have a chance when looking death in the face to solve their emergency, including by fleeing, dodging, healing, or going out in a blaze of glory.In short, what's proposed is nothing new.The Solution: VitalityCall it whatever you want, but what we're doing is giving each character their own "death's door" range of points called Vitality points instead of that 0 to -10 range where you lie on the floor waiting for a heal. You're here because you ran out of hit points, but instead of knocking you unconscious, we're going to let you act in a Staggered state, limited offensively but still with options.In doing so, we're addressing the hit point debate. Hit points are solely a representation of your ability to stave off real damage, to deflect serious blows, to ignore pain, and to just be plain lucky. Higher level characters get better at this, but no matter how good you are, a sword to the gut is still going to kill you. Vitality is the real damage.Incidentally, this also solves "whack-a-mole" absurdity because if this happens enough times, you're going to die.Hit Points: Nothing changes in the rules for hit points. Vitality Points:[sblock] At 1st level, you have the same Vitality Points as Hit Points (e.g. fighter has 10 + Con modifier). Concept: golly, am I getting double hit points at 1st level? The short answer is no. Those Vitality Points are a very vulnerable stage wherein you're crippled, the 0 to -10 spot if you will. Unlike down and dying, that next dagger hit can really kill you. It's not far from the Diehard feat of yester-edition where you keep going at 0, albeit in this system with penalties in combat.Every level after 1st, you gain +1 Vitality Point. Concept: the UA, which sucked, made Vitality unchangeable, a flat score = your CON. That's not a bad idea in some ways because it's close to the 0 to -10 range. But there should be some room for increased resiliency over time. It may not be much, but a few points might make the difference. Angry DM came up with another Hit Die + modifier every 4th level, but I'm not sure it matches what we're aiming for. His idea was that we're getting 1, maybe 2 rounds at most to act in this staggered manner, and this was to keep pace with increased monster damage. This is where I have to part ways. A 16th level fighter, under AngryDm's system with an average of 6 on the die and +3 Con bonus, would have 49 Vitality Points. He could withstand several swords to the gut, which isn't in line with Vitality and exceeds the original designs of how long a player could hold on. As a DM, I've got to chop through a lot of hit points and defenses already, and another 49 on top of that seems a bit absurd. But, as he wrote, it's theorycraft. I considered having the Vitality Points be static or based on CON. By basing it off class hit points, it rewards traditionally hardier classes with a reflective higher vitality. By adding +1 per level, you expand that figurative 0 to -10 range, but in minor fashion. We don't want to expand it too much because players already mitigate hits with increased hit points, and we don't want to expand it too much because Conan's internal organs don't get tougher over time. Vitality isn't your ability to avoid damage, it's how much you can take till you die. But, I like the visual of Inigo Montoya from the Princess Bridge, a higher level fighter, who manages to be stabbed a few times but somehow find a way to finish the battle. Finally, Vitality points can never be boosted. Spells such as False Life continue to only affect hit points.[/sblock]Damage:[sblock]When you take damage, it comes out of Hit Points first. Same old.Once you're out of Hit Points, you're in trouble. All subsequent damage goes to Vitality. You're out of gas, you're exhausted, you made a misstep. Like normal, when you hit 0 hit points, the excess damage is lost (unless it exceeds your max hit points, which still equals instant death). When you run out of Vitality, you're dead. No death saves. Dead. So again, that 0 to -10 range is where the damage is going.Don't do spillover. What we're doing is when hit points are out, you've finally taken a real hit. You're on the ropes, you're in trouble. If we spillover, a lot of characters are going to die. So we're following the D&D rules on this as normal.A melee opponent may choose to instead knock the character unconscious when 0 vitality is reached, leaving the player with 0 vitality points and the unconscious condition. This is the only exception to death at 0 vitality points. After 1d4 hours, the character will recover 1 vitality point and 1 hit point and lose the condition.A melee opponent may also choose to make its attacks on vitality do "nonlethal" damage. This still reduces Vitality but allows the Vitality to heal at an advanced rate. This removes the need for a foe to maul a character in order to knock them out. Under regaining points, nonlethal damage to Vitality recovers at 1 per hour if conscious.[/sblock]Regaining Hit Points and Vitality Points:[sblock]Hit points restore as normal.Vitality Points are regained only at the end of a Long Rest at the rate of 1 + CON modifier. Vitality Points reduced by "nonlethal" damage (see Damage) recover at the rate of 1 per hour, once the character is conscious.Vitality Points can be healed only if a character is already at maximum hit points, at the rate of 1 point per 10 points of healing, with healing calculated as if maximum healing were rolled. For example, Brutus the Fighter has lost 10 Vitality Points and after a Long Rest, gets all his Hit Points back. The Long Rest got him 4 Vitality Points (with his 16 CON). He's still 6 down and anticipates more battle today. He quaffs a Potion of Healing, which normally does 2d4+2 healing, but since he's at full hit points, is calculated to heal vitality as if maxed (10). He regains 1 vitality point. Alternately, Brutus has 3 hit points and gets a Regenerate spell cast on him. He initially heals 30 hit points, which brings him to 33 out of 37 hit points. He heals 1 point a round until full. At this point, the spell will heal 10 points per minute, so every minute, Brutus will heal 1 Vitality point.The UA, and AngryDM in theorycraft, propose that getting Vitality points back is a slower process. I agree. Wounds need to heal but not in such a way adventuring is impossible. Players might have to expend resources to speed it up, a penalty for taking so many hits they're in this state to begin with. I'm using the UA rate but modified the healing because it'd piss players off to burn potions and spells to no effect. I consider healing spells to start with your exhaustion, your aches and pains, and only after that's fixed to get to physical wounds, whereas a spell like Regeneration, given enough time, will heal everything.[/sblock]Uh oh, I'm Out of Hit Points, What Happens?[sblock]You become Staggered. You can't act effectively. Credit to Angry DM, he calls this condition Dispirited and everything but the lingering injury is his idea.You have:* Disadvantage on attacks* Enemy saves against anything you do have advantage (including abilities, spells, items, etc.)* Exhaustion increases by +1 (cumulative)* [optional lingering injury rule from DMG]: You must make a Death Save. If you fail this save by 5 or more, you immediately gain a lingering Injury. * If you have at least 1 Hit Point, you lose this condition.Basically you're crippled and can't act effectively. This creates an emergency state between 0 hit points and death. Dying but not unconscious. And, if you heal hit points, "whack-a-mole" becomes a more lethal situation because Exhaustion is cumulative. The effects get worse each stage, and at 6 levels of exhaustion, you die. As above, at 0 vitality, unless the melee foe opts to knock you unconscious, you die.Example: Brutus the Fighter can't avoid the goblin's arrow and is solidly hit. He begins to breathe raggedly, fearing something is broken. He is stunned, staggered, exhausted (figuratively folks). His swings to keep the goblin at bay are erratic. He can't focus on his maneuvers. He realizes he needs to run, regroup, let the Archer cover him until he can safely drink that prized healing potion. In game terms, he knows he sucks offensively, but (unless you're imposing optional injuries and he receives one), he should be able to Disengage, Dodge, quaff that potion, and so on. If he quaffs that potion, it heals his hit points and he will lose the condition. Brutus gambles he can ward off the goblin and drinks a potion. The goblin sweeps low and stabs in. Brutus can barely get his sword in place to block and he feels the sting of a blade on his skin. Brutus got 5 hit points back from drinking the potion but got hit again and went to 0hp. Once again he sucks, but this time, he's at Level 2 exhaustion. If he keeps this up, he won't be able to run soon, much less do anything, and if this "whack-a-mole" keeps up, he'll die.I've seen systems where it's proposed players get a level of exhaustion when hitting 0. This is very harsh! But, if the player is allowed to act, rather than go unconscious, it gives them power to mitigate the emergency. Spells that affect fatigue might become more imperative to a group. Getting enough sleep, avoiding forced marches, etc., come into greater play. Exhaustion is brutal because it's hard to get rid of, 1 level per long rest, but if you don't implement this mechanic, you're giving a LOT to the player without taking much away, and they can indefinitely pop potions without repercussion. This should encourage more strategic play on all levels.[Optional Rule]: the DMG rule as written is goofy and rarely affects gameplay. You can be down 3-4 rounds, then finally fail a Death Save by 5 or more, and suddenly realize your leg is chopped off? Most of the table's conditions are remedied by magical healing, and given 99% of players will be brought back into play by magical healing, they rarely will have substantive effect. But, this optional rule makes for a grittier game where there's a chance an already bad situation gets exacerbated with an effect that may actually have impact on the battle. If you do implement this, don't make it automatic. Players will hit 0 hp often enough, and an auto-injury each time means you'll have a pretty solid chance of gimping your party. In a level 1-14 campaign using the lingering injury rule (fail death save by 5 or more when down and dying), we ended up with 2 lost body parts, including a barbarian who wielded 2-handed weapons losing an arm. If I implemented an injury each time they hit 0hp, my players would have flipped the table long ago.[/sblock]Proposed Impact, in Theory[sblock]I've played 3rd edition and Pathfinder and never had any trouble with the Staggered condition or Diehard rules. I don't think this is anything new and instead gives players options to manage their own emergencies. When you're down, magical healing is pretty much the only option, but if you're into your Vitality Points, options like Disengage, Dodge, defensive spells and so forth become paramount. As a downside, this could lead to more player deaths. In the current system, as above, if I go down and an enemy stabs me in the gut (critical hit), that's 2 fails. But I don't die. And, I'm wagering many DMs don't coup de grace downed players, instead having enemies move onto the next. In reality, though, a real enemy would put a sword through the downed foe to make sure they're not faking. Otherwise, you're inviting a dagger to the back because you were foolish enough to assume it's over because your foe fell down.Because the player is still active, he's a target. But, that's the challenge. When you're on death's door, you need to take defensive action, immediately.Also, because it's not playtested, I can't account for every magic item or spell's interaction. [/sblock]Spell/Item Adjustments:[sblock]Spare the Dying becomes useless unless modified. I recommend allowing it to remove either (1) disadvantage on attacks or (2) opponent save advantage penalties when Staggered.A Ring of Regeneration restores 1 Vitality point every 10 minutes to a character with full Hit Points even though its maximum heal value is 1d6. If it can reattach fingers, it can heal vitality. [/sblock]</blockquote>

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