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<blockquote data-quote="udalrich" data-source="post: 3752842" data-attributes="member: 53796">I'd be willing to say there's no save.&nbsp; However, before we get to that point, we have the following.When the doppelganger first appears, everyone gets a Spot check against the doppelgangers Disguise check to recognize him.&nbsp; If the doppelganger takes 10, this is a DC 29 check, so only the characters with significant ranks in Spot will make it.If there's any social interaction between the players (or they're&nbsp; together long enough that this would happen, even if it isn't role-played), everyone gets a Sense Motive check to notice the impostor.&nbsp; This is a DC 20 check, so even the wisdom 10 fighter with no ranks can make it (on a natural 20).Some of these checks might get repeated if there's a long time between the first appearance and the battle.During the battle, anybody with Spellcraft would get a check to notice that the doppelganger is casting spells differently than usual.&nbsp; DC depends on how much time the doppelganger has had to learn about the original cleric's casting technique.&nbsp; I expect a DC between 10 and 30, depending also on details about how much variation there is between individual casters in my game.When the treachery finally occurs, spellcasters would get another Spellcraft check to see that he's casting the wrong spell (DC 15 + level), and the target gets a Sense Motive against Bluff check.&nbsp; If the target makes the Sense Motive check, he gets a save.&nbsp; If the spellcasters make their check, they won't be able to interrupt the doppelganger, but they will be able to shout a warning, again giving the target a save.The spell would be an don't-save-and-die spell, but (with the iconic party of four), there were previously probably nine failed skill checks.&nbsp; Some where (near) impossible, but some where certainly reasonable.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="udalrich, post: 3752842, member: 53796"] I'd be willing to say there's no save. However, before we get to that point, we have the following. When the doppelganger first appears, everyone gets a Spot check against the doppelgangers Disguise check to recognize him. If the doppelganger takes 10, this is a DC 29 check, so only the characters with significant ranks in Spot will make it. If there's any social interaction between the players (or they're together long enough that this would happen, even if it isn't role-played), everyone gets a Sense Motive check to notice the impostor. This is a DC 20 check, so even the wisdom 10 fighter with no ranks can make it (on a natural 20). Some of these checks might get repeated if there's a long time between the first appearance and the battle. During the battle, anybody with Spellcraft would get a check to notice that the doppelganger is casting spells differently than usual. DC depends on how much time the doppelganger has had to learn about the original cleric's casting technique. I expect a DC between 10 and 30, depending also on details about how much variation there is between individual casters in my game. When the treachery finally occurs, spellcasters would get another Spellcraft check to see that he's casting the wrong spell (DC 15 + level), and the target gets a Sense Motive against Bluff check. If the target makes the Sense Motive check, he gets a save. If the spellcasters make their check, they won't be able to interrupt the doppelganger, but they will be able to shout a warning, again giving the target a save. The spell would be an don't-save-and-die spell, but (with the iconic party of four), there were previously probably nine failed skill checks. Some where (near) impossible, but some where certainly reasonable. [/QUOTE]

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