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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ledded" data-source="post: 1239703" data-attributes="member: 12744">(EDIT: I first replied without reading down through what you were saying, sorry.)Oh, you mean by firing more bullets, etc.  Yes, automatic weapons however are a lot more dangerous than they are modelled in the game...  in reality a burst from an assault rifle is going to tear up your day pretty darn fast if it hits you, and pretty easily from an exerienced marksman.  But in our game there aren't a lot of automatic assault rifles laying around because we play a sort of 'citizen X-files' type game and overuse of illegal guns will cause our PC's a lot of trouble.  The best gun in our game of 6th level guys is my 10 gauge semiautomatic shotgun, and it's range is crap, but it's legal to have if I dont get stupid with it.  And I'm the party gun nut ;^).  I think that a "melee smash for guns" would be a very bad idea, because of the ability to focus on weapon specialization and automatic weapons for burst and double-tap, plus there is really no basis for it in my opinion... how do you train someone to hit *harder* with bullets?  You can train for accuracy, but that increases your ability to apply the same bullet to a more delicate place.  Also, remember my point that a guy around 10th level (strong 6, soldier 4) with a +3 from melee smash, 18 str for a +6 (two handed), Weapon specialization +2, and power attack on average say +4 (to balance out a -4 from burst) is hitting with a 2d6 +15 with a greatsword.  A similar guy with an assault rifle doing 3d10 (die added for VP/WP) will burst for 5d10 + 3 (2 for weapon spec, 1 for point blank).  Sure, the damage potential for the guy with the burst is much higher, but the average damage for the guy with the greatsword is much greater... on average the guy with the sword is going to do more damage irregardless of die rolls.  It's partially the ability to raise the average damage, ergo, the amount of damage you can do *most* of the time that kept us from raising the die on melee weapons.  I agree totally, actually a little more so.  I am fairly experienced with a couple melee weapons, and if I assume I wouldnt just curl up in a ball and cry in a real life and death situation (who knows for sure unless you've been there) I would probably never, ever try to take on a guy with a pistol with me holding a sword unless he was *very* close to me, not currently pointing it at me, and I had absolutely no way to escape.  And I'll also give you that at higher levels, with burst fire from larger calibers, this system does have some definite issues if you are in a super-soldier/spec-ops kind of game (particularly with crits... who could survive 5d10+3 WP damage if someone rolls well?), but as I said before we are a bit more role-play, so it probably wont be a problem for us.  However, a crit from a greatsword with a +15 to damage is going to mess up *anyone's* day if not send most people into negative WP land, which at that level of training to me is appropriate.1)  I agree on the basis of damage potential; an average wound with the pistol (flesh wound, shot through the arm not hitting an artery, etc) is less serious than a hard whack with a greatsword by someone good with one, but on average the greatsword is going to give you a serious wound.  Remember that at higher levels, even with our VP/WP, the greatsword is much more damaging than a .38 (above example, 2d6 +15 vs. 3d6 +3) and will do MUCH more damage on average; higher caliber guns even up that score a good bit though.  So I do  agree except that by saying that the greatsword does more damage more often, while the pistol has more damage *potential*  (lucky shot through the heart is not much different than lucky shot that glances off a rib... just different die rolls, whereas an experienced sword guy is going to be pounding you pretty hard every time).2)  I agree, with the same things I said above about average vs. potential damage.3)  Yup, though it is a bit harder/stricter, IMO, to go the melee/unarmed route... you really have to train for it. 4)  I agree totally, but realize that our game is a little less John Woo than most modern games;  our PC's are more normal people who, while the fight a lot, arent necessarily fighters as much as regular folks thrust into that role (even at 6th level, my guy is the 'gun guy', and he doesnt even have burst fire, and if he ran around town with an assault rifle he would get arrested more likely than not).  For this reason, our VP/WP rules work well to keep us in check when the bullets start flying.  Your mileage may vary folks.5)  Well said, however I dont believe that adding a single die to guns alters it very much considering the "buffer" you get in wound points (and the availability of ways to increase WP and body armor giving decent DR).  We like it a little more dangerous, with guns staying pretty scary throughout our players career.  We never want our guys to laugh off the .38 because we know that it couldnt possibly kill us.  Sure, at 6th level, someone would be hard pressed to drop my guy with a .38 even with a double tap, but it *could* happen on a very lucky shot.6) Again, very well said there Tacky.  One reason I like the VP/WP system too:<Mooks shoots, hitting the character for VP damage>GM:  The shot hits the edge of the concrete wall you are taking cover behind mere inches from your head as you frantically duck, twisting your knee, spraying you with fragments of sharp concrete.  <Mooks shoots, hitting the character for WP damage>GM:  As you lean out around the corner for a look, something strikes you hard in the shoulder taking some of the wind out of you;  luckily your vest apparently  absorbed some of the impact, however it must have caught the seam because you see some blood.  You think you may be ok, but there are going to be some stitches and possibly a cracked bone or two.(or, if you fail the save to stay conscious after taking WP damage)GM:  As you lean out around the corner for a look, something strikes you hard in the shoulder... you feel bones snap under the pressure and hot pain surge up into your head before the world closes in, and you find yourself wondering how they got such a pretty paintjob on the ceiling when it's so far up there just before things go black.Sure, you can do this with hit points just as easy, but we like it.  Also, if you fail the save on taking WP damage (and you didnt go negative) you arent dying yet, just knocked out for a bit.  Inconvenient, but not always a ticket to the meatwagon.All in all, I guess I agree with most of what you stated above, but favor guns a bit over melee because of their potential for damage, which in the VP/WP system we make a little bit more realistic *to us* for a grittier, more scary feel.   Very good thoughts.</blockquote>

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