WACK! AAAAAA (knockback)

[Corlon]

During one of my sessions the half-ogre barbarian of the party took out his huge (and I do mean "huge") warhammer and smashed it into one of the sahuigans assaulting his boat. He got something like 22 damage, and I just thought of a giant ogre smashing a sahuigan in the stomach.

I ruled that if someone does 20 damage with one strike and with just weapon/str damage (no frost or flame etc.) then the person has to make a reflex save or be knocked back five feat (or fall prone if it was a downward strike if a weapon can do a downward strike)

I made the reflex save 15 but I think I should base it on the damage.

I know this could use a bit of fine tuning, but how does it sound?

good, bad, broken?

comments, questions?

 

[EricNoah]

During one of my sessions the half-ogre barbarian of the party took out his huge (and I do mean "huge") warhammer and smashed it into one of the sahuigans assaulting his boat. He got something like 22 damage, and I just thought of a giant ogre smashing a sahuigan in the stomach.

I ruled that if someone does 20 damage with one strike and with just weapon/str damage (no frost or flame etc.) then the person has to make a reflex save or be knocked back five feat (or fall prone if it was a downward strike if a weapon can do a downward strike)

I made the reflex save 15 but I think I should base it on the damage.

I know this could use a bit of fine tuning, but how does it sound?

good, bad, broken?

comments, questions?

One way to approach it is to sort of define a) who is good at it, and who is bad at it; and b) who is good at resisting it, and who is bad at resisting it.

To me, size would be a big factor: a small character should be worse at resisting a knockback than a large character. And a strong character should be better at performing the trick than a weak character. And I think a skilled combatant would be better at both delivering and avoiding a knockback than a novice. So far, then, I have Size mod + STR mod + BAB. This seems like grapple check material so far.

The distance could be based on damage dealt (1 foot per 2 hp or 5 hp or whatever), or size difference (no size difference = 5' ; knocker is larger than knockee by 1 size category = 10', etc.).

Now, if you want dexterity to play into it, you could have some sort of save or check to see if the knocked character ends up prone or on his feet. Could be Reflex, or could be like a Balance check or something.

 

[clark411]

heh I've been learning the Knockback and Knockdown rules for Exalted so this thread got my attention. It's a nice effect, designed in Exalted for cinematics more than effect, although Knocked creatures are usually stunned (-2 to stuff, not dnd stunned) by the effect.

in that game, you make a Stamina+Resistance check vs the damage in health levels or go flying a yard for every three damage.

Putting that into DnD terms.. Fort SV DC variable by damage. Failure equals going flying a number of squares also variable by damage. This makes sense, as the fighters should be resisting going flying, not the rogues.

Knockback
Damage / Fort SV DC / Distance thrown(ft)
20 / 10 / 5
25 / 15 / 5
30 / 20 / 10
35 / 25 / 10
40 / 28 / 15
45 / 30 / 15
50 / 32 / 20

Knockdown
Damage / Fort SV DC / Effect
20 / 10 / Prone
25 / 15 / Prone
30 / 20 / Prone, Dazed
35 / 25 / Prone, Dazed
40 / 28 / Prone, Dazed
45 / 30 / Prone, Dazed, Large+ Auto Pin
50 / 32 / Prone, Dazed, Large+ Auto Pin

"Dazed" is per the dazed condition

"Large+ Auto Pin" basically allows size Large or better creatures to sacrifice attacks to keep the knocked down person pinned underneath their weapon. This opens them up to other attacks as they really can't defend themselves with the club that has a fighter squirming under it. But, they can keep the guy immobile so long as the fighter fails the grapple checks to brake the pin.


it's not broken, and many players may actually be for it. a wizard getting hit for 30 damage is HAPPY to go flying backwards 10 ft away from whatever hit him.. at least until you start giving extra damage for being thrown.

 

[Piratecat]

Clark, that system has some trouble once you reach higher levels; it isn't unusual for people to do 50+ points of damage on a hit, and the game could start looking like you're fighting on a trampoline or with a bad wire crew for cheesy special effects.

I'd probably handle knockback with a feat (like Large and In Charge) only available to large creatures.

 

[clark411]

Nod, I agree that this system opens up a strikingly different cinematic effect to combat. I was just figuring that if he wanted people being thrown back for being dealt more than 20 damage, he was going for that type of environment.

Whether or not it's a "cheezy" thing, wire effects being bad or thought of as blockbuster, is up to his group- so I can't comment on it being any worse than the prospect of fighting big wire strung rubber dragons or kaiju or mindflayer men in rubber suits with bits of preserved squid taped to their faces along side blue painted men with white wigs and glued on ears. The merit of the rule set should be judged on those it's intended for, or it's feasibility, rather than what we think is campy.

These suggested rules can be applied only to bludgeoning damage if wanted, or an opponent can have to elect to perform a Knockback or Knockdown attack. After all, a fighter with 4 attacks in one round would hate to have his first hit deal 40 damage.... great, opponent got a free move backwards 15 ft. Alternatively, you don't want the mounted paladin playing knockback with his lance, opening up for the charge every round.

Also, Knockback could be made to work only against creatures 1 or 2 sizes smaller than you. I have no problems seeing a human batting a pixie across the room with a big enough club, and i don't see any reason a fire giant couldn't do the same to a human. It's when we see a human with a sap blasting someone else off a roof, that issues can be had. =)

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

I'd say that it would only work with bludgeoning, and then only if the weapon was 1 or more size categories larger than the target. Thus, a human could be knocked back by a half-orc with a greatclub, and a halfling could be knocked back by someone with a heavy mace.

 

[Beholder Bob]

Knockback (x,y/z) a value to add to creatures (and characters). Based on the size and # of legs/method of movement. If take this amount (x) or more, suffer knockback. Move back y feet per z damage over x unless make a save vs damage, reflex or fortitude, with +z to the roll (so creatures hard to knockback get high z, hard to knockback, better save, less distance). Now, is it worth the effort to add to a game, and it risks having a very super hero effect (good for FR, bad for more realistic worlds). Perhaps a better method would be using a critical hit (or perhaps - even a threaten for critical can produce knockback) to trigger one, so only roll occasionally. Also possible, add attack option to try to knockback foe (similar to trip attack) with a minus to hit. Ehh. Must get back to work.

 

[Norfleet]

Well, it depends on how you view "knockback". In a "realistic" scenario where a critter is struck by another critter of his own size, a "knockback" typically occurs because the struck victim is unbalanced by the hit and staggers backwards to avoid falling on his ass. He's not actually sent flying in an airborne manner. In this respect, "knockback" is actually a reduced version of a knockdown effect: The target manages to catch himself before he falls on his ass, but in the process of doing so, is knocked back. Basic physics will tell you that in order for a person to actually be sent FLYING, due to conservation of momentum, if both parties were initially toe-to-toe, if one person goes flying in one direction, the other person goes flying in the other direction.

On the other hand, when a giant tees off against a halfling, we expect to see some serious airtime...and probably a corpse. Since the more massive opponent has greater mass, the corresponding recoil for the larger creature is less than for the smaller creature.

Damage done and type of damage is also a consideration: A piercing weapon generally doesn't exhibit this effect, because a pierced character is impaled rather than struck, and an impaled character is thus prevented from travelling very far by virtue of being skewered. Slashing weapons would be somewhat less likely than bludgeoning weapons, and probably not get quite the same distance hurled(perhaps half distance).

However, you can always conduct home testing on knockback between human targets. Find a friend(or better yet, an enemy), and a baseball bat, smack him, and observe how far, and the manner in which, he is knocked back. Testing for cases of size disparity will be somewhat more difficult, and I do not condone such violence against animals.

 

[Beholder Bob]

However, you can always conduct home testing on knockback between human targets. Find a friend(or better yet, an enemy), and a baseball bat, smack him, and observe how far, and the manner in which, he is knocked back. Testing for cases of size disparity will be somewhat more difficult, and I do not condone such violence against animals.
Science and its methods. It's the right thing to do.

 

[Beholder Bob]

Uh...Holy Sh@t! my assumption was that font size 6 was tiny. Uh, oops.

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we know what 6 does, I'm afraid, very afraid.
7. 6 scares me, 7... well 7... I can't. I just can't.