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<blockquote data-quote="Joe Liker" data-source="post: 6341362" data-attributes="member: 6777505">I dislike the &quot;ninjas should be the best climbers, so basing it on Str is dumb&quot; example that people use when trying to merge and muddy the two skills. Almost as much as I dislike the idea of merging and muddying the two skills!A ninja is a good climber because that ninja has Athletics proficiency. At high levels, that ninja is going to be a pretty darned good climber, regardless of his Str. At low levels, I'm not convinced that every ninja should be an excellent climber.You know who is a better climber at low levels? The guy with lots of upper arm strength who can lift his own body weight without breaking a sweat. That strength isn't going to do him as much good in bad conditions (where proficiency will help a lot), but it is enough to get the job done at simple climbing when training isn't necessary.Same with jumping. Two people who are similarly trained jumpers are going to be able to jump similar distances, but if one is stronger than the other, the strong one will win, period. Dexterity has nothing to do with it -- it's the training that matters. (You could figure body weight into the equation, but that's far too granular for 5e.)So yeah, climbing and jumping are always Athletics. Balance is always Acrobatics. People are good at one or the other because of training, not because of innate dexterity.I understand that people want to conflate the two because the effect of intense practice often looks a lot like innate dexterity. But they are not the same.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Joe Liker, post: 6341362, member: 6777505"] I dislike the "ninjas should be the best climbers, so basing it on Str is dumb" example that people use when trying to merge and muddy the two skills. Almost as much as I dislike the idea of merging and muddying the two skills! A ninja is a good climber because that ninja has Athletics proficiency. At high levels, that ninja is going to be a pretty darned good climber, regardless of his Str. At low levels, I'm not convinced that every ninja [I]should[/I] be an excellent climber. You know who [I]is[/I] a better climber at low levels? The guy with lots of upper arm strength who can lift his own body weight without breaking a sweat. That strength isn't going to do him as much good in bad conditions (where proficiency will help a lot), but it is enough to get the job done at simple climbing when training isn't necessary. Same with jumping. Two people who are similarly trained jumpers are going to be able to jump similar distances, but if one is stronger than the other, the strong one will win, period. Dexterity has nothing to do with it -- it's the [I]training[/I] that matters. (You could figure body weight into the equation, but that's far too granular for 5e.) So yeah, climbing and jumping are [I]always[/I] Athletics. Balance is [I]always[/I] Acrobatics. People are good at one or the other because of training, not because of innate dexterity. I understand that people want to conflate the two because the effect of intense practice often [I]looks[/I] a lot like innate dexterity. But they are not the same. [/QUOTE]

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