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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6123656" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]: Maybe not surprisingly, but I disagree with pretty much all of that except that you don't have actual data to back it up. I don't think it is likely that Slaad will ever be a major monster, but I equally don't think that Law/Chaos will ever be as evocative of a conflict to most players and Good/Evil except by dressing the conflict in the trappings of good/evil. Frankly, for most Western players, angels and demons are just always going to dominate the stage as 'outsiders'. There is nothing that can be done to change that. Slaad and Modrons aren't famous because they are bad and they can be fixed. They aren't famous because they aren't in a niche most people care about. Changing up their flavor or mechanics or anything else won't fix that. The are in a small niche, that's why they are fairly obscure. Capturing more of that would be about making people care more about the law/chaos conflict and about nuetral outsiders. That's probably beyond the scope of the game. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well yeah, but it's going to take a lot more than replacing them with something else in the sme niche too.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think you are wrong. If you google the term Eladrin, most websites are using it for 'extra-planar good aligned fey inspired outsiders'. The PC race just has less written about it. Eladrin didn't gain a lot of traction with the rewrite - the already familiar term elf just gained a synonym. Most people think 'elf' and treat it as such. The overwhelming majority of the images in a Google image search were creations of the WotC art department (and its subcontractors). All the image search shows is that WotC poured a lot more effort into the artwork of a PC race than it ever did into the artwork of an outsider. Is that a big surprise? </p><p></p><p>Darkmantles are sufficiently different to peircers that I don't see the resemblence and if I wanted to use them would happily use them alongside each other (the best predecessor to a darkmantle is an executioner's hood, not a peircer, regardless of what thet design team says). Eladrin as PC race I don't need because I already have elves and I don't have 4e racial mechanical requirements, but if I wanted to use them I could easily use the PC race as a subset of the Eldarin race as a whole - the PC race is native outsiders, a lineage of elves that has interbred with creatures of the fairy realms. </p><p></p><p>(House rules: They are naturally skilled at Planeswalking - +2 racial bonus to the skill and it is always a class kill and +2 racial bonus to Knowledge (Planes) and it is always a class skill; otherwise similar to elves. Viola.)</p><p></p><p>The existance of these new ideas can be treated as elaboration rather than replacement.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6123656, member: 4937"] [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]: Maybe not surprisingly, but I disagree with pretty much all of that except that you don't have actual data to back it up. I don't think it is likely that Slaad will ever be a major monster, but I equally don't think that Law/Chaos will ever be as evocative of a conflict to most players and Good/Evil except by dressing the conflict in the trappings of good/evil. Frankly, for most Western players, angels and demons are just always going to dominate the stage as 'outsiders'. There is nothing that can be done to change that. Slaad and Modrons aren't famous because they are bad and they can be fixed. They aren't famous because they aren't in a niche most people care about. Changing up their flavor or mechanics or anything else won't fix that. The are in a small niche, that's why they are fairly obscure. Capturing more of that would be about making people care more about the law/chaos conflict and about nuetral outsiders. That's probably beyond the scope of the game. Well yeah, but it's going to take a lot more than replacing them with something else in the sme niche too. I think you are wrong. If you google the term Eladrin, most websites are using it for 'extra-planar good aligned fey inspired outsiders'. The PC race just has less written about it. Eladrin didn't gain a lot of traction with the rewrite - the already familiar term elf just gained a synonym. Most people think 'elf' and treat it as such. The overwhelming majority of the images in a Google image search were creations of the WotC art department (and its subcontractors). All the image search shows is that WotC poured a lot more effort into the artwork of a PC race than it ever did into the artwork of an outsider. Is that a big surprise? Darkmantles are sufficiently different to peircers that I don't see the resemblence and if I wanted to use them would happily use them alongside each other (the best predecessor to a darkmantle is an executioner's hood, not a peircer, regardless of what thet design team says). Eladrin as PC race I don't need because I already have elves and I don't have 4e racial mechanical requirements, but if I wanted to use them I could easily use the PC race as a subset of the Eldarin race as a whole - the PC race is native outsiders, a lineage of elves that has interbred with creatures of the fairy realms. (House rules: They are naturally skilled at Planeswalking - +2 racial bonus to the skill and it is always a class kill and +2 racial bonus to Knowledge (Planes) and it is always a class skill; otherwise similar to elves. Viola.) The existance of these new ideas can be treated as elaboration rather than replacement. [/QUOTE]
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