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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Voadam" data-source="post: 4220950" data-attributes="member: 2209">Saying it is obvious to you but that of course I can't see it and chances are I probably never will comes off to me as condescending and presumptuous. Being able to see how others could think from a different point of view is not that hard a skill, its one I use in D&D all the time. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  I'm trying to understand if there is a rational basis for what looks like a visceral but irrational distinction.I can see neither summoning for combat nor vampiric dagger use being considered evil. I can see both being considered evil.I can see people feeling that summoning for use with vampiric daggers are icky while summoning combatants is not, but not being able to articulate an actual moral distinction.I can see multiple different reasons one might consider the two uses of summoning morally distinctive.Distinctions between summoning for fighting and summoning to use a vampiric weapon on them can be articulated and the moral distinctions evaluated.I feel confident that if you could articulate an actual moral distinction between summoning for fighting and sacrifice I could then see it even if I disagreed with it. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I'm accepting your assumption here that it is evil to use the vampiric dagger on the summoned creatures. I'm asking why under that assumption it is not also evil to send these summoned creatures off to fight your battles.Taking your north south slave/property analogy, fine the creatures are sentient morally autonomous beings deserving of rights and respect as sentient autonomous beings.Why is summoning them, binding them to your command, and sending them into danger not also morally bad? Because you are not inflicting the harm yourself and are just sending them into harm's way? Because they might not suffer any harm, just risk harm, compared to intentionally inflicting pain? There are multiple reasons that could be articulated each with different implications.Remember these are not just celestial allies who volunteered to be part of a caster's god's army and work under the command of the god's divine champion, these include wizard summoned beings with no alignment requirements or divine connection.There is more room between these cases where different lines could be drawn based on different values as well. Is it evil to send the summoned critters off to set off a known trap? To test for a trap so you don't have to? To fight with you being different than for you such as in a gladiatorial event. Does it matter what the nature of the summoning is (are they magical constructs created on the spot, astral projections of creatures from other planes, individual creatures actually here who become magically reborn later if killed during the summoning, etc.)Saying its obvious to you, that you believe I will never be able to do so, others believe similarly to you and leaving as an exercise for me to figure out does not answer my question to you of what is the basis of your distinction. It is merely bailing on providing an explanation.</blockquote>

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