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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Flamestrike" data-source="post: 7964669" data-attributes="member: 6788736">Invisibility is all but useless without a high Stealth score to pair it with. The spell only ALLOWS you to hide. It doesnt make you hidden (until you take the Hide action, and succeed on a Stealth check vs nearby observers Passive Perceptionn scores).An 9th level Wizard has (at best) a +7 or so bonus to Stealth (presuming he's even proficient in it anyways), and I cant see him wasting his Action just to Hide all that often.In combat it's an Action to cast and you cant even attempt to Hide until the following turn, when you need to waste another Action to take the Hide action (with no guarantee of being successful due to your likely mediocre Stealth).An 8th level Rogue probably has a Stealth bonus of +13 or so, and can take the Hide action as a Bonus action. Heck; hes a few levels off 'Reliable talent' so he (and only he) reliably and totally vanishes from anyone with a Passive Perception of 23 or less as a Bonus action when invisible.Knock lets everyone within a 300 feet know you're breaking in. It creates a giant crashing sound that makes it a bit pointless for stealth entry and B&E. You could probably achieve the same thing with an Axe in 99 percent of circumstances.Just like how Charm person no longer invalidates the party 'face', or Haste no longer invalidates the party 'meatshield', (the Wizard gets a small benefit for using those spells on himself, but he gets a much bigger benefit using them to augment the guys in the party that are already good at the job) Invisibility and Knock dont replace the Rogue at all; they're designed to make the Rouge better at the things he is already good at.I think WoTC knocked it out the park in this edition with those spells (unlike 3E where the Wizard could invalidate other PCs with ease).</blockquote>

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